• Wednesday, August 12, 2020

If Pakistani pilots trained on Rafale, then its weapons system has already been compromised

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by N.Siddiqui, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. N.Siddiqui

    N.Siddiqui SENIOR MEMBER

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    If Pakistani pilots trained on Rafale, then its weapons system has already been compromised

    This would be a serious violation of the India-France secrecy pact, whether by intent or by default remains to be seen.

    ABHIJIT IYER-MITRA 11 April, 2019 4:45 pm IST

    [​IMG]
    A Rafale fighter aircraft | Pascal Le Segretain/Getty Images

    The revelation that Pakistani pilots reportedly trained on Qatar’s Rafale fighter jets with a configuration similar to our own represents a major security breach, in that it significantly compromises a weapons system even before it has entered service with the Indian Air Force, if proven true.

    The question is, what is the nature of the breach, the possible damage, the legal implications and how is it different from other such cases (for example, both China and India operate the Sukhoi Su-30, and both Israel and Egypt operate the F-16).

    The Qatari Rafales share several similarities with the Indian aircraft, notably the RBE 2 active radar, the Spectra electronic warfare (EW) system, and the vaunted long-range Meteor air-to-air and SCALP ground attack missiles. Now, while pilots are not taught the complete physics of jamming that the Spectra system would use, trained pilots would know what modes to use and how. This would allow the pilot to extrapolate the full range of the jet’s passive and active capabilities. Given the state of ongoing tension between Qatar and its neighbours, these Pakistani pilots will also possibly have the opportunity to size up the Rafale against the F-16 of the UAE’s air force. Tellingly, this F-16 versus Rafale combo is exactly the combat scenario on the India-Pakistan front as well. So, while the EW systems won’t be compromised, the Rafale’s capabilities will become known to the Pakistan Air Force.

    Also read: IAF wants fresh info from France as concern rises over reports of Pakistani pilots’ Rafale training

    The radar, however, is a different story altogether, and it is safe to say that it now stands almost entirely compromised, not in that it can be jammed, but rather in what it can do. Any training will explore the maximum possible capacities of all systems including radars. This would include the maximum range, the resolution, the nature and calibre of information and data sharing between Rafales, the tactical tricks it uses in the radar spectrum and its strengths and weaknesses. They will also learn what the maximum flight covers, and the tracking and detection capabilities of a whole host of mated missiles such as the Meteor, SCALP and Mica as well as the tricks associated with their launch.

    For example, the Rafale’s RBE 2 radar does not have a two-way link with the Meteor (that is to say, the Rafale can feed information to the missile, but the missile cannot feed information back to the plane). This means that even after firing the missile, the Rafale jet has to keep flying and track the target till the much smaller radar on the missile’s nose detects the target. Knowledge of the time and distance gap between how far the Rafale has to follow the Meteor before it can break off the attack and allow the missile to take over is critical information that could help evolve a set of viable tactics to counter the Meteor-Rafale combination.

    Given that India’s purchase of the Rafale was to overcome the shortcomings of the Sukhoi, specifically the range required to reach the Chinese Eastern Seaboard, it is safe to assume that the range of the Rafale, in all possible configurations, is now known to the Pakistanis who will duly pass it on to the Chinese.

    https://theprint.in/opinion/if-paki...s-system-has-already-been-compromised/220180/
     
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  2. N.Siddiqui

    N.Siddiqui SENIOR MEMBER

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    PAF pilots flew Rafale before IAF so it knows its weaknesses: India’s Defense Dreams Shatter

    [​IMG]



    Recent reports reveal that pilots of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) were given access to the French Dassault Rafale medium weight multirole fighter, and were trained to operate these fighter jets in France.



    India has garnered much attention for its acquisition of these fighter aircrafts, and the acquisition engulfed Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s BJP government in a mega-corruption scandal associated with the exuberant expenses paid by the Indian exchequer to undertake this deal.

    Indian Air Defense Shattered
    India’s primary reason to acquire the Rafale was to counter the impregnable air defense of Pakistan, which had become a pressing concern for India in the aftermath of the swift defeat the PAF fighter pilots handed to the Indian Air Force pilots who ventured into Pakistani airspace during 27th February’s “Operation Swift Retort”.

    Now that the Pakistani fighter pilots have operated India’s widely publicized Rafale, Pakistan is fully aware of the exact specifications of the aircraft, launching a terrible blow to India’s designs of having a competitive edge in air warfare.




    It is important to note that the Pakistan Air Force has no designs to acquire and operate the French Rafale. Instead, it has set its sights on the upcoming JF-17 Block 3 link and stealth fighters manufactured under the Project AZM in a bid to innovate its fleet of fighter aircrafts.

    Pakistan fighter pilots, under a program of the Qatari Air Force, were sent to France to acquire training on the Rafale aircrafts. The Qatari Armed Forces have been dependent on recruits from Pakistan to operate its acquired aircrafts and other hardware since the 1970s.

    During the 1991 Gulf War, personnel of the Pakistan Army assisted Qatar in the battle against the Iraqi forces and even operated Qatari battle tanks to engage on behalf of the Gulf state.

    This has allowed Pakistan’s air defense to familiarize itself with the specifications and limitations of the Rafale design, alongside understanding its weapon systems.

    The small population of Qatar and its elevated lifestyle standards has rendered the Gulf state unable to recruit its own citizens to serve in the armed forces and air force, and much like its neighbor, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, it is heavily dependent on Pakistan’s military assistance.

    Pakistan’s Familiarity with Rafale Specifications
    The Pakistani fighter pilots who underwent training on the Rafale aircrafts in France have flown the aircraft before the first squadron of the Indian Air Force got a chance to fly its new acquisition. This has allowed Pakistan’s air defense to familiarize itself with the specifications and limitations of the Rafale design, alongside understanding its weapon systems.

    This will allow PAF’s assets, including the JF-17 fighter jets equipped with PL-12 and the HQ-16 air defense batteries a superiority in avoiding attacks launched from the French manufactured Rafale, alongside effectively neutralizing these aircrafts.

    https://www.globalvillagespace.com/...its-weaknesses-indias-defense-dreams-shatter/
     
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  3. N.Siddiqui

    N.Siddiqui SENIOR MEMBER

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    Should these reports turn out to be true, Pakistan would in all likelihood know what the Rafale can see, what it cannot, how the Rafale hides, what tricks it can use in combat, how far its missiles fly, and how it manoeuvres to avoid incoming missiles. More importantly, Pakistan would know what Rafale pilots are instructed not to do. This is particularly potent because using these tactics, they can now force the Rafale into situations where Indian pilots are at a disadvantage. To sum up, the most dangerous aspect of this is not the fact that specific electronic frequencies are compromised (they aren’t), but rather the knowledge of how the Rafale and its pilot see, evade, think and fight.

    At face value, the initial French denial is weak given that news sources seem to have reported on this intermittently since 2016 at least. This, if proven, would be a serious violation of the India-France secrecy pact, whether by intent or by default remains to be seen. Irrespective of that, I would be most glad if proven wrong.

    https://eurasiantimes.com/did-pakistani-pilots-really-train-on-qatars-rafale-fighter-jets/
     
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  4. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab BANNED

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    Lol, Qatar needs to get some pilots.
     
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  5. Mighty Lion

    Mighty Lion BANNED

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  6. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab BANNED

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  7. N.Siddiqui

    N.Siddiqui SENIOR MEMBER

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    Further to this, the Pakistani army are the leading trainers of Arab militaries and a key balancing act between the tinder box of tensions between Iran, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Furthermore, the Pakistani Army has become the first Army from the Islamic world to train British and international officer cadets at the world’s oldest elite military training school the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (RMAS). Aside from this, the United Nations’ centre for excellence for peace keeping training is located in Pakistan where officers from all over the world come to be trained in conflict resolution. This article analyzes the Pakistan Army’s role in securing stability around the world, in the West and Middle East in particular.

    https://www.e-ir.info/2017/08/28/pakistans-role-in-western-and-middle-east-security/
     
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  8. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab BANNED

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    Less influential among countries like UAE who have now become up to high standards especially the AF. But Qatar is a small country with low citizen numbers, so I understand.
     
  9. N.Siddiqui

    N.Siddiqui SENIOR MEMBER

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    PAF has trained UAE pilots as well, when UAE purchased a large numbers of F-16, block 60 earlier...and that has actually resulted in lots of confrontation between US and UAE...
     
  10. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab BANNED

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    Can you provide sources for this bro? By the time F-16 Block 60 was inducted UAE had many pilots trained on others jets, and training on the F-16s could come from the USA.

    Even a Emirati Mirage-2000 aviator shot down a F-22 in a war game dogfight.
     
  11. N.Siddiqui

    N.Siddiqui SENIOR MEMBER

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    The UAEAF consists of about 4,000 personnel.

    In the 1970s and 80s, the UAEAF was instructed by Pakistan Air Force pilots on Dassault Mirage IIIs, the backbone of the UAEAF at the time. Even today, many of the personnel are ex-Pakistan Air Force officers and technicians. Most of the flying instructors at Al Ain are from Pakistan, training pilots using Grob G 115, Pilatus PC-7, Aermacchi MB-339, andBAE Hawk 63 aircraft. A few officers of No. 12 Squadron (Hawk 102) at Al Minhad Air Base, are also from the Pakistan Air Force. Some of these officers are on deputation (active service), but most are on civilian contracts with the Air Force Headquarters in Abu Dhabi. Numerous officers of other nationalities have also trained UAE pilots, among them Pakistanis, Moroccans, Canadians, Jordanians, and South Africans.

    Its a known fact. Pakistani pilots have flown M2k from UAE, and EFT's in Saudia too. In fact, until a few years ago (I don't know about today), majority of AD controllers in KSA's AWACS, were Pakistani AF AD controllers.

    That experience went directly into building the ZDK AWACS system, all these are known facts, nothing is so special or hidden.....
     
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  12. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab BANNED

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    Can you prove this statement at all? I dont want the word of your uncles cousins gramma.
     
  13. N.Siddiqui

    N.Siddiqui SENIOR MEMBER

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    As I have said, the deal was cancelled after US pressure...so yes you are right here regarding F-16 training.
     
  14. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab BANNED

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    No citation for these statements, you took that part out to help your statment.


    In the 1970s and 80s, the UAEAF was instructed by Pakistan Air Force pilots on Dassault Mirage 5s, the backbone of the UAEAF at the time. Even today, many of the personnel are ex-Pakistan Air Force officers and technicians.[citation needed] Most of the flying instructors at Al Ain are from Pakistan, training pilots using Grob G 115, Pilatus PC-7, Aermacchi MB-339, and BAE Hawk 63 aircraft. A few officers of No. 12 Squadron (Hawk 102) at Al Minhad Air Base, are also from the Pakistan Air Force. Some of these officers are on deputation (active service), but most are on civilian contracts with the Air Force Headquarters in Abu Dhabi. Numerous officers of other nationalities have also trained UAE pilots, among them Pakistanis, Moroccans, Canadians, Jordanians, and South Africans.
     
  15. Philip the Arab

    Philip the Arab BANNED

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    It is not allowed for not nationals to fly the planes, UAE has pilots with 3000 hours on it and frequently flies with US af. I'm not sure it is exactly a merc air force like you are implying.