PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[imranyounus]

PAF did well but they planed it with over time changes. The feb 19 success was due to well planning. Indians inducted Su 30 in 90s but it was not until 2010 that PAF got f 16 block 52. Not taking any thing away from PAF but I think if we didn't had both above assets results might have been different. So I am pretty sure PAF is planning a counter. We are just analyzing what it might be.

 

[ice_man]

To be Honest PAF has no counter. This is hard to believe but hear me out.

1) France sold Rafael so cant offer us anything currently.

2) USA wants to pitch F21 to India hence not excited to sell us more F16s. Besides with us it is usually a love hate relationship.

3) Euro fighter typhoon too expensive for us like even 1 Squadron will require us to sell our kidneys

4) Russia wants to sell to us but is scared of losing a bigger customer like India.

5) Gripen is an option but has too much western tech that could be sanctioned


Leaves us with only 1 option....... J10s which well is not a Rafael but is the only realistic option we have inferior but still the only option.

 

[Arsalan345]

To be Honest PAF has no counter. This is hard to believe but hear me out.

1) France sold Rafael so cant offer us anything currently.

2) USA wants to pitch F21 to India hence not excited to sell us more F16s. Besides with us it is usually a love hate relationship.

3) Euro fighter typhoon too expensive for us like even 1 Squadron will require us to sell our kidneys

4) Russia wants to sell to us but is scared of losing a bigger customer like India.

5) Gripen is an option but has too much western tech that could be sanctioned


Leaves us with only 1 option....... J10s which well is not a Rafael but is the only realistic option we have inferior but still the only option.

Only counter is probably ground assets like who will detect it first. Detecting rafale is another headache. Obviously we can't deploy all f-16s against rafale but rafale is too advanced. We need something like fc-31 or f-35 to counter it but unfortunately we can't buy these jets. I don't see any option except f-16 block 72.

 

[dbc]

Recently, Pakistan's top serving and retired military officers have given blunt statements, trivializing the threat posed by India's newly acquired Rafale jets. For the reader's benefit, we summarize these statements here:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1574208/5-rafales-or-500-pakistan-is-absolutely-ready-for-india-dg-ispr


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/q-a-with-paf-fighter-pilot-kaiser-tufail.680606/


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-knows-rafale-better-than-iaf.680362/


In this article, we shed light on these cryptic statements given by seasoned professionals.

RBE2 - Technology from the last decade

We start our discussion by reviewing what Thales, the manufacturer of RBE2 radar used in Rafale, has to say:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/document/2020-08/Thales RBE2 -2020-HD2_0.pdf
NOTE: Document attached with article as historic proof

The very first thing we note is Thales' description of the T/R modules used in RBE2:

MMIC/GaAs technologies

AESA radars explained

In order to understand the full significance of this short description, let us review AESA radars and the role GaAs and GaN play. Active electronically scanned array radars consist of an array of small transmit/receive modules, each of which is capable of transmitting and receiving radar beams. This differs from classical Pulse Doppler radars where there was a single transmitter and a single receiver. The array of T/R modules create new possibilities:

1. By using principles of electromagnetic superpositioning these radars can ensure a very high quality beam of radiation sent at a precise angle at the target. Similarly, the receiving modules can be tuned towards a specific direction, thus ignoring noise from the surroundings.
2. By dividing the array into sub-arrays, multiple targets can be tracked simultaneously.
3. By using different frequencies in different T/R modules, the radar becomes resilient from jamming.

Each T/R module comprises an antenna element, which feeds signals into an amplifier or transmits signals from the amplifier. Radars used in fighter jets work at frequencies ranging from 2-12 GHz. When these high frequencies are fed into/emitted from the amplifier, the crystal lattice inside the amplifier needs an abundance of electrons, and these electrons need to be able to move around very quickly. In classical semiconductor materials such as Silicon, there aren't enough electrons available, and the mobility of the electrons is also limited. This results in a break down of the semi-conductor properties at high frequencies.

The GaAs vs GaN battle

Using GaAs as the semi-conductor was the first breakthrough which made AESA radars possible. The second breakthrough was the development of MMICs or Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits, which allowed GaAs processing units to be deposited in the form of integrated circuits which can compactly fit behind the antenna arrays on an AESA radar.

But, GaAs has its limitations. When compared with GaN, GaAs has limited performance. The interested reader can read the details here:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/te...ence-between-gaas-and-gan-rf-power-amplifiers

The importance of GaN is further explained in a White Paper by China Telecom which was published in 2018:
NOTE: Document attached with article as historical proof
http://www.chinatelecom.com.cn/2018/ct5g/201806/P020180626325685163826.pdf


This was in 2018. In 2020, we find major Western nations expressing fear of China's superiority in wireless design, which is being attributed to advances in GaN MMICs:

https://www.5gradar.com/news/open-ran-alone-cant-beat-huaweis-5g-dominance-says-parallel-wireless


Understanding why RBE2 was obsolete before it even arrived in South Asia

This Chinese superiority in GaN chipsets is directly relevant to the blunt claims made by Pakistani military officials. Insha Allah, the AESA radar featured on JF-17 Block 3 shall have GaN MMIC logic. This means, it will be able to handle larger electric power, which results in a longer range for the Block 3 radar as compared to Rafale's RBE2. When paired with PL-15 or PL-XX, Insha Allah, JF-17 Block 3 will maintain PAF's ability to look first and shoot first.

I wish all my fellow Pakistani countrymen a very happy Independence Day. I end with the prayer that May Allah the Almighty Accept Pakistan and Pakistanis for the service of His religion, and make us a source of strength for Islam and Muslims throughout the world. Aameen.

Huawei make superior 5G base stations ergo Thales RBE2 is obsolete? Unless the JF-17 radar is made by Huawei that is a strange leap.First, Huawei base station GaN chips are mostly made in Japan by Sumitomo. Second, military semi-conductors are rarely at the cutting edge mainly due to the inherent need to harden these chips against EMP, noise and vibration.Third, Huawei isn’t a GaN leader as you claim and the JF-17 radar isn’t made by Huawei.

The RF GaN patent landscape is currently dominated by American and Japanese companies such as Cree, Fujitsu, Sumitomo Electric, Mitsubishi Electric, Intel, MACOM, Toshiba, Qorvo and Raytheon. The IP competition has been strongest in the USA, as demonstrated by a much greater number of granted patents (1200+) compared with China (640+), Japan (440+) and Europe (250+). However, patenting activity is now focused on China.

Turning point in RF GaN patenting over last 2 years

Patent activity driven by China, and IP moving further down value chain

www.semiconductor-today.com

 

[CriticalThought]

Huawei make superior 5G base stations ergo Thales RBE2 is obsolete? Unless the JF-17 radar is made by Huawei that is a strange leap.First, Huawei base station GaN chips are mostly made in Japan by Sumitomo. Second, military semi-conductors are rarely at the cutting edge mainly due to the inherent need to harden these chips against EMP, noise and vibration.Third, Huawei isn’t a GaN leader as you claim and the JF-17 radar isn’t made by Huawei.

The RF GaN patent landscape is currently dominated by American and Japanese companies such as Cree, Fujitsu, Sumitomo Electric, Mitsubishi Electric, Intel, MACOM, Toshiba, Qorvo and Raytheon. The IP competition has been strongest in the USA, as demonstrated by a much greater number of granted patents (1200+) compared with China (640+), Japan (440+) and Europe (250+). However, patenting activity is now focused on China.

Turning point in RF GaN patenting over last 2 years

Patent activity driven by China, and IP moving further down value chain

www.semiconductor-today.com

The military application of technologies underlying the Huawei 5G base stations is what makes RBE2 obsolete. Those underlying technologies are a result of progress made by the Chinese Military-Industrial Complex from which Huawei benefits. I know Western media has been after this company, with articles such as Huawei turns to pig farming, but meanwhile Huawei is thinking of opening up a design centre in Pakistan. It is useless arguing right now when the facts are not in the open. Just wait and watch.

Finally, it doesn't matter if Western companies have more IP in GaN or not. The fact of the matter is that RBE2 is GaAs based and that makes it obsolete.

 

[Ghessan]

To be Honest PAF has no counter. This is hard to believe but hear me out.

1) France sold Rafael so cant offer us anything currently.

2) USA wants to pitch F21 to India hence not excited to sell us more F16s. Besides with us it is usually a love hate relationship.

3) Euro fighter typhoon too expensive for us like even 1 Squadron will require us to sell our kidneys

4) Russia wants to sell to us but is scared of losing a bigger customer like India.

5) Gripen is an option but has too much western tech that could be sanctioned


Leaves us with only 1 option....... J10s which well is not a Rafael but is the only realistic option we have inferior but still the only option.

bring war to the next level in the subcontinent, improvise in EW, acquire required equipment and improve existing, improve skill level and training with new techniques don't let adversary get close to your expertise.

obviously PAF will be working on it, they know there is a new comer in the neighborhood and a lot of hue and cry.

India will never buy F-21

 

[The Maverick]

India will.buy rafales minimum.36

s400 will.add a lot of capability and change dynamics again making it impossible to launch surprise raids,with your current inventory. it's not like you going to induct f35 or Rafale or j20 ..

Usa is selling new f16 all.over the world including offering India the license production rights to f21 . so why you can't get f21 beats me .

realistically I don't even see j10.you guys have posts going back 15 years,on pak buying j10 not happened.. deep down your top brass know it's inferior to f16

 

[ziaulislam]

The military application of technologies underlying the Huawei 5G base stations is what makes RBE2 obsolete. Those underlying technologies are a result of progress made by the Chinese Military-Industrial Complex from which Huawei benefits. I know Western media has been after this company, with articles such as Huawei turns to pig farming, but meanwhile Huawei is thinking of opening up a design centre in Pakistan. It is useless arguing right now when the facts are not in the open. Just wait and watch.

Finally, it doesn't matter if Western companies have more IP in GaN or not. The fact of the matter is that RBE2 is GaAs based and that makes it obsolete.

No it doesnt
It just makes it 30% less efficient from power consumption prospective and hence range and output for same size with same cooling

A large portion of any detection system is also based upon AI and software which is better for countries with more R&D

China is definitvely not behind anymore but so is france

India will.buy rafales minimum.36

s400 will.add a lot of capability and change dynamics again making it impossible to launch surprise raids,with your current inventory. it's not like you going to induct f35 or Rafale or j20 ..

Usa is selling new f16 all.over the world including offering India the license production rights to f21 . so why you can't get f21 beats me .

realistically I don't even see j10.you guys have posts going back 15 years,on pak buying j10 not happened.. deep down your top brass know it's inferior to f16

Ofcourse it was inferior to f16
China was 15 yrs back where india is today
Go another 15 yrs back and india was light years ahead of china

So where is china today? Light years ahead of india
J10c is defintively superior to b52 may still be not as good as market leader f16block 70 but then i do believe even rafale isnt as good as block70 f16 with its ecosystem

 

[CriticalThought]

No it doesnt
It just makes it 30% less efficient from power consumption prospective and hence range and output for same size with same cooling

A large portion of any detection system is also based upon AI and software which is better for countries with more R&D

China is definitvely not behind anymore but so is france

Obsolescence is relative. The F-15 is obsolete relative to the F-22, but it is quite cutting edge when compared to a Mig-21.

The RBE2 is obsolete because it has lost the first look, first kill advantage even before it became fully operationalized in South Asian skies.

 

[dbc]

No it doesnt
It just makes it 30% less efficient from power consumption prospective and hence range and output for same size with same cooling

A large portion of any detection system is also based upon AI and software which is better for countries with more R&D

China is definitvely not behind anymore but so is france

Ofcourse it was inferior to f16
China was 15 yrs back where india is today
Go another 15 yrs back and india was light years ahead of china

So where is china today? Light years ahead of india
J10c is defintively superior to b52 may still be not as good as market leader f16block 70 but then i do believe even rafale isnt as good as block70 f16 with its ecosystem

yes it's all about the software, you may have the fastest CPU, GPU and memory but if your operating system, software and games ...i.e. software cannot exploit the hardware then you just wasted a ton of money on expensive hardware. Thales have decades of experience making radar and avionics so I wouldn't write them off and claim the RBE2 is obsolete.

 

[CriticalThought]

yes it's all about the software, you may have the fastest CPU, GPU and memory but if your operating system, software and games ...i.e. software cannot exploit the hardware then you just wasted a ton of money on expensive hardware. Thales have decades of experience making radar and avionics so I wouldn't write them off and claim the RBE2 is obsolete.

The best software in the world is useless if the target is out of detection range but can still observe you.

 

[dbc]

The best software in the world is useless if the target is out of detection range but can still observe you.

ufff...there are so many variables, detection range is limited by the horizon..the slant angle of the radar...LO characteristics of the opponent...and service ceiling. The JF-17 can't fly as high as the F-15 or the Rafale and so superior hardware may be negated by superior flight performance. Higher service ceiling translates to greater distance to horizon. The Rafale is equipped with other sensors that enhance detection namely spectra, TV and IR sensor that is slaved to the radar. The JF-17 does not..

The FOV of fighter sized targeting radar is limited and this is the reason we rely on airborne radar, AWACS and such for early warning i.e. early detection. The JF-17 may outrange the Rafale but it won't outrange the enemy AWACS.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

interesting thread page with a lot of content..thanx

 

[CriticalThought]

ufff...

There goes your carefully crafted all American persona.

there are so many variables, detection range is limited by the horizon..the slant angle of the radar...LO characteristics of the opponent...

Don't worry your little Indian head. Insha Allah, the KLJ-7A shall be made keeping all of this in mind to give Block 3 first look, first kill over the Rafale.

and service ceiling. The JF-17 can't fly as high as the F-15 or the Rafale and so superior hardware may be negated by superior flight performance. Higher service ceiling translates to greater distance to horizon.

And so you reveal your complete cluelessness about the topic you are trying to debate.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Jf-17

pac.org.pk

JF-17 Service Ceiling: 55,500 ft

Rafale specifications and performance data

Consult the main specifications of the Rafale: dimensions, weight, store stations and performance data.

www.dassault-aviation.com

Rafale Service Ceiling: 50,000 ft

The Rafale is equipped with other sensors that enhance detection namely spectra, TV and IR sensor that is slaved to the radar. The JF-17 does not..

Typical Indian tout that we have been hearing on this forum for years. None of these sensors give it the first look, first kill advantage.

The FOV of fighter sized targeting radar is limited and this is the reason we rely on airborne radar, AWACS and such for early warning i.e. early detection. The JF-17 may outrange the Rafale but it won't outrange the enemy AWACS.

Obviously, your puny Indian brain cannot comprehend the concept of networked JF-17 formations that increase the FOV.

@The Eagle @WebMaster potential Indian false flagger identified.

 

[ziaulislam]

yes it's all about the software, you may have the fastest CPU, GPU and memory but if your operating system, software and games ...i.e. software cannot exploit the hardware then you just wasted a ton of money on expensive hardware. Thales have decades of experience making radar and avionics so I wouldn't write them off and claim the RBE2 is obsolete.

And chinese have decades of experience and are leading AI
So i wont sign them off too

only countries that operate both chinese and western weapons can truely say whats the comparison.

Pakistan testing SAAB(Leaders in AESA radar in europe withGaN leaders too) and chinese systems would have an idea

My guess is china has catched up simply because there R&D is 20x more then any european country with additional extensive espionage

ufff...there are so many variables, detection range is limited by the horizon..the slant angle of the radar...LO characteristics of the opponent...and service ceiling. The JF-17 can't fly as high as the F-15 or the Rafale and so superior hardware may be negated by superior flight performance. Higher service ceiling translates to greater distance to horizon. The Rafale is equipped with other sensors that enhance detection namely spectra, TV and IR sensor that is slaved to the radar. The JF-17 does not..

The FOV of fighter sized targeting radar is limited and this is the reason we rely on airborne radar, AWACS and such for early warning i.e. early detection. The JF-17 may outrange the Rafale but it won't outrange the enemy AWACS.

How high does rafale fly?
Really if chinese software is as good as french
And if output of jf17 radar is within 30% of rafale radar and if KLJ7 indeed is GaN based then well KLJ7 Might be as good

In rare earth metal research chinese are second to noon