PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[VCheng]

Well the Boeing 787 can fly much higher than older metal airliners. Unlike metal, Carbon composite experience no compression or expansion at higher altitudes. The service ceiling of the Rafale as listed by the manufacturer is 50,000 ft but it can cruise at 60,000 ft . The ceiling of the aircraft is limited only by the supply of oxygen to the engine.

And lift based on speed and wing design. There is a crossover where the stall speed and flight speed merge.

 

[dbc]

And lift based on speed and wing design. There is a crossover where the stall speed and flight speed merge.

Yes true, the F-22 thrust vector had three design goals.
1. Short take off and landing
2. high altitude maneuverability
3, reverse thrust (deleted)

 

[Asian.Century]

Any idea How many Rafales India now has ?

 

[Blacklight]

Any idea How many Rafales India now has ?

24

Sixth batch of Rafale fighter aircraft lands in India

This is the sixth batch of Rafale fighter jets from France that has been received by India, IAF sources told ANI. Earlier, on April 22, the fifth batch of Rafale fighter aircraft that had four planes arrived in India after flying a distance of 8,000 km from the Merignac Air Base in France.

m.economictimes.com

 

[Asian.Century]

24

Sixth batch of Rafale fighter aircraft lands in India

This is the sixth batch of Rafale fighter jets from France that has been received by India, IAF sources told ANI. Earlier, on April 22, the fifth batch of Rafale fighter aircraft that had four planes arrived in India after flying a distance of 8,000 km from the Merignac Air Base in France.

m.economictimes.com

What do you think can Pakistan 'effectively' face and take on the 6 batches of Rafale Fighter 4.5 Generation as of now?

 

[Trango Towers]

If it's strictly about Rafales then Pakistan should 1) enhance the capabilities of JF-17 2) invest in better SAM systems 3) invest in a 4.5 generation jet in the interim and a 5th generation for long term.

And look at ways of taking out runways from long ranges so b4 the enemy can take off they are out of action

 

[araz]

What do you think can Pakistan 'effectively' face and take on the 6 batches of Rafale Fighter 4.5 Generation as of now?

Modern day war arena and aerial warfare is a different ball game to one on one air fights. We have a well integrated system whereas the Rafale will need integration into their netcentric warfare system. To date we do not know how they plan to do that. They have diverse origin hardware and that MAY still remain a problem. So the question you ask is dependent on the ability of the IAF to integrate the Rafale into their system. It is a great fighter and once and if integrated will become a greater threat. But failure to do so like in the MKI will result in mixed outcomes. Also even at a loss of 2 JFTs if we can bag a Rafale the cost to IAF both monetarily and morale wise would be immense.
Our lions on the other hand are a cut above every one else be izn Allah.
A
A

And look at ways of taking out runways from long ranges so b4 the enemy can take off they are out of action

I think their depth remains a big issue for us. They have longer range fighters so can afford to pull their fighters back to bases further inside India and still be able to strike. I suspect with increasing hostilities that maybe what they might do. So unless the strike is swift and mighty and unannounced the aim might be difficult to achieve. Does not mean PAF will not try to do so .

A

 

[Asian.Century]

Modern day war arena and aerial warfare is a different ball game to one on one air fights. We have a well integrated system whereas the Rafale will need integration into their netcentric warfare system. To date we do not know how they plan to do that.

I will like to break your post into valid responses. Certainly believe Rafale being a 4.5 Generation is well ahead, what PAF has now in its technological inventory, countering is not an easy task at all. Agility, Speed, Meteor Missiles, integration with AWACs. Rafale now is a very very dangerous aircraft in Pakistan vs India Aerial affairs ability to pull back deep into India. JF17 block 3 can hold its own depending on pilots ability, F16s too depending on pilots ability but technologically IAF has just become ahead. We could have a well integrated system, but Indians also having Mirage 2000s, Mig 21 Bisons, Su30 Mkis was an era where PAF integrated system worked well as it showed, with its SAAB 2000s/other radars and its F-16s, & JF17s, but current high technological leap-forward with Rafale while in process of netcentric warfare system integration will in reality, IAF will not take long when it becomes a very dangerous netcentric warfare unit with 6 batches in the existing netcentric warfare system integrated soon. Given PAF current system, I donot see PAF has the JF17s or F16s (its AMRAAMs were used to shoot 2 IAF jets on Feb 2019) can do much about current growing Indian Capability.

Look at this with Rafales it is big leap forward in technology and air weapons :

Above image says Rafales 36 order is almost complete with 13 soon to be completed.

They have diverse origin hardware and that MAY still remain a problem. So the question you ask is dependent on the ability of the IAF to integrate the Rafale into their system. It is a great fighter and once and if integrated will become a greater threat. But failure to do so like in the MKI will result in mixed outcomes. Also even at a loss of 2 JFTs if we can bag a Rafale the cost to IAF both monetarily and morale wise would be immense.
Our lions on the other hand are a cut above every one else be izn Allah.

Yes what we think having a diverse hardware pose a certain threat, a problem maintaining, but eventually with 4-5 platforms like USA, UK, Europe, China, Egypt is fairly common, it is not much a hassle if deployments and careful interoperability is achieved. In Certain conditions this can give a surprise edge over the adversary on the type of aircraft coming onto the attack while everyone knows PAF has JF17s,F16s and point defense F7s only. India used 4 attacking platforms to play around Pakistan by using Mirage 2000s, Mig 21 Bisons, Su 30 Mki and Mig 29s with also backhand support of its AWACS platforms. Although Pakistan decided its very own operation Swift Retort to respond in kind successfully destroying Mig 21 and Su30Mki, but it does not mean PAF had a successful defence strategy when IAF managed to come and also fire its Spider 2000 bombs at Balakot from 100kms earlier at night hours with multiple cross border entries into Karachi side, Bhalwapur/Mutlan side and then eventually Balakot making a deceiving tactic to Pakistan.

Agree once Rafale is integrated it is already a standalone deadly aircraft but will become even more deadly sharp killer when integrated with latest weapons and AWACS, and which actually now made me ask, does PAF has effective ways to counter this huge coming threat.

Loosing 2 Jf17s with 2 pilots to 1 Rafale jet. I am not sure this is how PAF thinks in tactical battles, its about success in the overall political objectives which has made PAF the most successful organization. Can 2 JF17s actually down 1 Rafale provided its ever alone?

I think their depth remains a big issue for us. They have longer range fighters so can afford to pull their fighters back to bases further inside India and still be able to strike. I suspect with increasing hostilities that maybe what they might do. So unless the strike is swift and mighty and unannounced the aim might be difficult to achieve. Does not mean PAF will not try to do so .

Better start worrying big time. India's depth is a big issue, that is exactly what India is thinking in times of pulling back among hostilities, IAF can pull back deep into various positions in India, and Pakistan must need to find a way out of this. PAF can match with agile, superior technology, better trainings programmes, better efficiency and a pull back air space contract with Afghanistan and Iran in times of high hostility.

 

[TNT]

I will like to break your post into valid responses. Certainly believe Rafale being a 4.5 Generation is well ahead, what PAF has now in its technological inventory, countering is not an easy task at all. Agility, Speed, Meteor Missiles, integration with AWACs. Rafale now is a very very dangerous aircraft in Pakistan vs India Aerial affairs ability to pull back deep into India. JF17 block 3 can hold its own depending on pilots ability, F16s too depending on pilots ability but technologically IAF has just become ahead. We could have a well integrated system, but Indians also having Mirage 2000s, Mig 21 Bisons, Su30 Mkis was an era where PAF integrated system worked well as it showed, with its SAAB 2000s/other radars and its F-16s, & JF17s, but current high technological leap-forward with Rafale while in process of netcentric warfare system integration will in reality, IAF will not take long when it becomes a very dangerous netcentric warfare unit with 6 batches in the existing netcentric warfare system integrated soon. Given PAF current system, I donot see PAF has the JF17s or F16s (its AMRAAMs were used to shoot 2 IAF jets on Feb 2019) can do much about current growing Indian Capability.

Look at this with Rafales it is big leap forward in technology and air weapons :

View attachment 750383

Above image says Rafales 36 order is almost complete with 13 soon to be completed.



Yes what we think having a diverse hardware pose a certain threat, a problem maintaining, but eventually with 4-5 platforms like USA, UK, Europe, China, Egypt is fairly common, it is not much a hassle if deployments and careful interoperability is achieved. In Certain conditions this can give a surprise edge over the adversary on the type of aircraft coming onto the attack while everyone knows PAF has JF17s,F16s and point defense F7s only. India used 4 attacking platforms to play around Pakistan by using Mirage 2000s, Mig 21 Bisons, Su 30 Mki and Mig 29s with also backhand support of its AWACS platforms. Although Pakistan decided its very own operation Swift Retort to respond in kind successfully destroying Mig 21 and Su30Mki, but it does not mean PAF had a successful defence strategy when IAF managed to come and also fire its Spider 2000 bombs at Balakot from 100kms earlier at night hours with multiple cross border entries into Karachi side, Bhalwapur/Mutlan side and then eventually Balakot making a deceiving tactic to Pakistan.

Agree once Rafale is integrated it is already a standalone deadly aircraft but will become even more deadly sharp killer when integrated with latest weapons and AWACS, and which actually now made me ask, does PAF has effective ways to counter this huge coming threat.

Loosing 2 Jf17s with 2 pilots to 1 Rafale jet. I am not sure this is how PAF thinks in tactical battles, its about success in the overall political objectives which has made PAF the most successful organization. Can 2 JF17s actually down 1 Rafale provided its ever alone?



Better start worrying big time. India's depth is a big issue, that is exactly what India is thinking in times of pulling back among hostilities, IAF can pull back deep into various positions in India, and Pakistan must need to find a way out of this. PAF can match with agile, superior technology, better trainings programmes, better efficiency and a pull back air space contract with Afghanistan and Iran in times of high hostility.

U keep blowing the doll of rafale but failed to give any concrete reasons as to why rafale is a "huge" threat? Is it alien technology? Like raptor of the east? Lolz

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I think their depth remains a big issue for us. They have longer range fighters so can afford to pull their fighters back to bases further inside India and still be able to strike. I suspect with increasing hostilities that maybe what they might do. So unless the strike is swift and mighty and unannounced the aim might be difficult to achieve. Does not mean PAF will not try to do so

A

Hence, once the staffs get settled, PAF/PA need to have a number of bases deep inside Afganistan surrounded by the mighty mountains....

What do you think can Pakistan 'effectively' face and take on the 6 batches of Rafale Fighter 4.5 Generation as of now?

For the TurAF has already done it in the East Med! A number of the Greek F-16s were intercepted and got locked by the Turkish F-16s! A couple of French Rafaels were loitering nearby, but couldn't come to the aid of their Hellenic brethren-in-arms...

The French EW capability in their naval platforms in the East Med have got beaten by the Turkish EW as it got jammed and painted, so the French frigate fled....

 

[araz]

Hence, once the staffs get settled, PAF/PA need to have a number of bases deep inside Afganistan surrounded by the mighty mountains....

For the TurAF has already done it in the East Med! A number of the Greek F-16s were intercepted and got locked by the Turkish F-16s! A couple of French Rafaels were loitering nearby, but couldn't come to the aid of their Hellenic brethren-in-arms...

The French EW capability in their naval platforms in the East Med have got beaten by the Turkish EW as it got jammed and painted, so the French frigate fled....

You cannot fight a war by having bases in other countries. The next encounter in this arena is going to be devastating and not much will survive. In any case strategic depth in Afghanistan was an idea of the 80s that died with the second USincursion into Iraq and Afghanistan. There will be trust decicit amongst the Talibans with good reason so it is unlikely to happen. Afghanistan will be in turmoil soon and will likely remain so for the next 3-5 years.

As to your boasts about Turkish progress I would temper your opinions. The French would not take any sides in a Turk-helinic encounter as it is not their war. If they wanted to they could have taken the Turkish 16s down, as did the Greeks so please keep your boasting to yourself.
I have immense respect and love for my Turkish brothers but falsifying/ misrepresenting facts lead to wrong decisions which you dont want.
A

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

You cannot fight a war by having bases in other countries. The next encounter in this arena is going to be devastating and not much will survive. In any case strategic depth in Afghanistan was an idea of the 80s that died with the second USincursion into Iraq and Afghanistan. There will be trust decicit amongst the Talibans with good reason so it is unlikely to happen. Afghanistan will be in turmoil soon and will likely remain so for the next 3-5 years.

As to your boasts about Turkish progress I would temper your opinions. The French would not take any sides in a Turk-helinic encounter as it is not their war. If they wanted to they could have taken the Turkish 16s down, as did the Greeks so please keep your boasting to yourself.
I have immense respect and love for my Turkish brothers but falsifying/ misrepresenting facts lead to wrong decisions which you dont want.
A

If they could have taken out the Turkish systems, would have they left Libya, Karabag’, East Med, Northern Irak etc. to Turkey???? Please use your intelligence....

Yes, at the end of the day it’s the Iman and Ihlas!! And, it comes for a reason! I think you’re missing on that! And, I don’t blame your for that....

The history of the Turkic folks is little different from other nations for a reason....

 

[Sayfullah]

I think their depth remains a big issue for us. They have longer range fighters so can afford to pull their fighters back to bases further inside India and still be able to strike. I suspect with increasing hostilities that maybe what they might do. So unless the strike is swift and mighty and unannounced the aim might be difficult to achieve. Does not mean PAF will not try to do so .

Can Pakistan create a proxy a big sleeper cell in India and it only gets activated if war between Pakistan and India happens. So if war happens the proxy gets activated and attacks key Indian bases deep inside India. We can raise a proxy of 5000 Kashmiri/Pakistani/pro pak Indian muslim fighters and train them and give them advanced weapons so when war starts they weaken india from inside and attack their bases. Even if they don’t destroy the base they can cause severe damage to it. And to avoid getting their cover blown we can tell them to live normal life’s in India until war starts

Just a hypothetical scenario?

 

[The Maverick]

I think if there was realistic affordable answer to Rafale it would have happened by now

there is no option outside of block 3 thunders,which themselves number 30 planes

j10 c or f16 block 70 would s d should have been concluded 2 years,ago .if pakistan air power was serious about answering both s400 and Rafale on the in coming challenge
it takes years to sign and,deliver and fully integrate a new platform . And paf has done nothing despite Rafale deal being signed in 2017
there,was no realistic option imo they knew block 3 was the realistic option and hoped to get more f16 rather than expect or plan for more

 

[Blacklight]

Rafale is operated by Egypt and Qatar this is very beneficial to Pakistan

Can you please elaborate, how it would be beneficial?