PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[Basel]

India will.buy rafales minimum.36

s400 will.add a lot of capability and change dynamics again making it impossible to launch surprise raids,with your current inventory. it's not like you going to induct f35 or Rafale or j20 ..

Usa is selling new f16 all.over the world including offering India the license production rights to f21 . so why you can't get f21 beats me .

realistically I don't even see j10.you guys have posts going back 15 years,on pak buying j10 not happened.. deep down your top brass know it's inferior to f16

There are things which are not officially announced by PAF which are mostly effective force multipliers and one of them was reported on web as JY-27A in Pakistan.

Things like these in NCW change warfare.

 

[dbc]

And chinese have decades of experience and are leading AI
So i wont sign them off too

Software is about iterations of infusing real world learnings into the development/ capability road map. An example of real world experience translating into battle field capability. USN was able to tweak the F/A 18 Super Hornet AESA radar to disable IEDs in Iraq.

 

[ziaulislam]

Last i check rafale and jf17 both have 50,000 feet celing unless indian rafales have two boasters to take it to moon

Software is about iterations of infusing real world learnings into the development/ capability road map. An example of real world experience translating into battle field capability. USN was able to tweak the F/A 18 Super Hornet AESA radar to disable IEDs in Iraq.

China is doing simulation in south china see for decades

 

[dbc]

Last i check rafale and jf17 both have 50,000 feet celing unless indian rafales have two boasters to take it to moon

China is doing simulation in south china see for decades

...The Rafale can go as high as the F15 Eagle, obviously it takes much longer to get there since it can't zoom climb like the F15. JF 17 is a metal bird the Rafale is mostly carbon composite makes a big difference in flight performance...

 

[ziaulislam]

...The Rafale can go as high as the F15 Eagle, obviously it takes much longer to get there since it can't zoom climb like the F15. JF 17 is a metal bird the Rafale is mostly carbon composite makes a big difference in flight performance...

WTF...
Okay

 

[dbc]

WTF...
Okay

Well the Boeing 787 can fly much higher than older metal airliners. Unlike metal, Carbon composite experience no compression or expansion at higher altitudes. The service ceiling of the Rafale as listed by the manufacturer is 50,000 ft but it can cruise at 60,000 ft . The ceiling of the aircraft is limited only by the supply of oxygen to the engine.

 

[dbc]

Obviously, your puny Indian brain cannot comprehend the concept of networked JF-17 formations that increase the FOV.

Is that Huawei 5G network?
A single fighter sized radar can volume scan +5/-5 deg to the azimuth. You will probably need 50 JF-17's staggered a thousand feet apart to substitute the capability of one E2D Hawkeye.

 

[SQ8]

Last i check rafale and jf17 both have 50,000 feet celing unless indian rafales have two boasters to take it to moon

China is doing simulation in south china see for decades

Service ceilings are set by other factors as well - including pressurization ratings, OBGOS limitations etc.
Technically the Su-27 is rated to 60000ft but it has gone higher. The F-16 is rated to 55000 but Kaiser Tufail took it to 62k(against safety measures). So it is a flimsy metric to go from in terms of BVR combat.

What matters is T/w and climb rate, and for all accounts the Rafale is faster than the JF-17 to 45000ft and will likely be at a higher speed getting there. This provides the greater energy to the missile - advantage Rafale.

But, if one looks at the most common scenarios to play out in the subcontinent, what matters is how threatening is the blockIII with its AESA+PL-15 combo to the Rafale:

20000ft - nose to nose, the JF-17 will fire first and be able to crank abeam first due to the PL-15’s slight advantage in range.

Who has the higher PK? It will be the missile carrying greater energy at the end of the engagement and is more resistant to countermeasures.

But this has already been discussed at length and involves a lot more factors than just Radar detection and missile engagement ranges. Everything from where (whose territory) , who(other assets in place) and how(altitude, speed, aircraft configuration) come into play .

 

[SQ8]

Is that Huawei 5G network?
A single fighter sized radar can volume scan +5/-5 deg to the azimuth. You will probably need 50 JF-17's staggered a thousand feet apart to substitute the capability of one E2D Hawkeye.

That makes little sense - today a 4 ship of F-15’s flying at 25k can cover a 400sq miles area via Link-16(even a tactic called “wall of eagles”) - they still scan 60 degrees but can provide an inverse sawtooth shaped detection area.

While the JF-17 block-III may not have the same coverage as 4 Su-30MKi doing the same tactic, they will definitely be able to multiply their coverage area by width.

This is actually covered in the publicly available Dash-1 manuals for the F-16

 

[dbc]

That makes little sense - today a 4 ship of F-15’s flying at 25k can cover a 400sq miles area via Link-16(even a tactic called “wall of eagles”) - they still scan 60 degrees but can provide an inverse sawtooth shaped detection area.

While the JF-17 block-III may not have the same coverage as 4 Su-30MKi doing the same tactic, they will definitely be able to multiply their coverage area by width.

This is actually covered in the publicly available Dash-1 manuals for the F-16

unlikely a four ship F-15 formation can scan 360 deg, 0 ft to 60,000 ft. The F15 radar does not sit on a repositioner or swash plate like the Raven ES 05 or the Captor AESA. With a repositioner, 100 deg detection is possible to the left or right but tracking from azimuth above or below is still limited by the radome, perhaps a generous +/- 20 deg Azimuth for the Gripen but still not enough to cover all that sky with a four ship formation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/666492655870853120

 

[SQ8]

unlikely a four ship F-15 formation can scan 360 deg, 0 ft to 60,000 ft. The F15 radar does not sit on a repositioner or swash plate like the Raven ES 05 or the Captor AESA. With a repositioner, 100 deg detection is possible to the left or right but tracking from azimuth above or below is still limited by the radome, perhaps a generous +/- 20 deg Azimuth for the Gripen but still not enough to cover all that sky with a four ship formation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/666492655870853120

Again - you are talking to a very spurious and impossible scenario that is never one to solve or even needs solving.

why in the world is 360 coverage required?

We are referring to multiplying coverage in the forward hemisphere by having aircraft datalinked. Whether that radar scans 5 degrees in azimuth or sits on a swashplate is irrelevant to the aspect of increased coverage. At no point does it replace or replicate the capability that goes into a AEW radar system with its much larger antenna, power output and processing optimized for the larger coverage area.

A 4 ship of JF-17’s cannot provide the same coverage as a single JF-17 supported by a Erieye AEW.
However,they are definitely going to provide more coverage than 2x Rafales using the right tactics.

 

[dbc]

Again - you are talking to a very spurious and impossible scenario that is never one to solve or even needs solving.

why in the world is 360 coverage required?

We are referring to multiplying coverage in the forward hemisphere by having aircraft datalinked. Whether that radar scans 5 degrees in azimuth or sits on a swashplate is irrelevant to the aspect of increased coverage. At no point does it replace or replicate the capability that goes into a AEW radar system with its much larger antenna, power output and processing optimized for the larger coverage area.

A 4 ship of JF-17’s cannot provide the same coverage as a single JF-17 supported by a Erieye AEW.
However,they are definitely going to provide more coverage than 2x Rafales using the right tactics.

Your compatriot raised an objection to the FOV of a fighter radar vs AWACS. I was trying to explain to him replicating the coverage of a AWACS will require many networked fighters perhaps as many as 50 to replace one E2D Hawkeye or equivalent, in other words his idea is NOT practical.

 

[CriticalThought]

Your compatriot raised an objection to the FOV of a fighter radar vs AWACS. I was trying to explain to him replicating the coverage of a AWACS will require many networked fighters perhaps as many as 50 to replace one E2D Hawkeye or equivalent, in other words his idea is NOT practical.

And in your haste you have misunderstood what I said. I have nowhere compared the JF-17 to an AEWACs, I just presented the point that a networked formation is more than enough to get the job done. At this point, we don't have the details about the inclusion or lack of a swashplate, so talking about coverage is meaningless. The key message is that JF-17 has been held back until IAF operationalizes Rafale, and using latest technologies it is going to be a potent threat against the Rafale itself, without a backing AEWACs.

As soon as you realized you have nothing to defend in a one on one between RBE2 and KLJ-7A, you shifted the discussion to AEWACs vs KLJ-7A. So now we have confirmation from an Indian that the Rafale from its very onset comes with the crutch of AEWACs before it can be effective against the Block 3. And no less than an Indian title holder is accepting this.

Is that Huawei 5G network?
A single fighter sized radar can volume scan +5/-5 deg to the azimuth. You will probably need 50 JF-17's staggered a thousand feet apart to substitute the capability of one E2D Hawkeye.

Hey @Areesh we have an Indian displaying American flags tying to be a Norwegian after searching uff on Google. And this lowlife is a title holder!!!!

@WebMaster @The Eagle what is the world coming to?

 

[ziaulislam]

And in your haste you have misunderstood what I said. I have nowhere compared the JF-17 to an AEWACs, I just presented the point that a networked formation is more than enough to get the job done. At this point, we don't have the details about the inclusion or lack of a swashplate, so talking about coverage is meaningless. The key message is that JF-17 has been held back until IAF operationalizes Rafale, and using latest technologies it is going to be a potent threat against the Rafale itself, without a backing AEWACs.

As soon as you realized you have nothing to defend in a one on one between RBE2 and KLJ-7A, you shifted the discussion to AEWACs vs KLJ-7A. So now we have confirmation from an Indian that the Rafale from its very onset comes with the crutch of AEWACs before it can be effective against the Block 3. And no less than an Indian title holder is accepting this.


Hey @Areesh we have an Indian displaying American flags tying to be a Norwegian after searching uff on Google. And this lowlife is a title holder!!!!

@WebMaster @The Eagle what is the world coming to?

I think indulging a person like this is waste of time
Just sayig "WTF" will suffice

 

[The Eagle]

@WebMaster @The Eagle what is the world coming to?

Please avoid off-topic posts. Let the team handle such matter. Instead of tagging in open thread like that, use REPORT button please and leave the rest to the team.

Regards,