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PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

No, confirmed this was surely never (Oh well I already speak like Yoda :azn: ) but it was even more refuted that the WS-10 may be based on the AL-31!

I think no-one denies that there was some sort of technology "transfer" from the AL-31 into the WS-10, especially later variants - but that it was based on it was also never confirmed and in fact even more vehemently denied.
WS10 is derived from AL31/31-F1.
 
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No, confirmed this was surely never (Oh well I already speak like Yoda :azn: ) but it was even more refuted that the WS-10 may be based on the AL-31!

I think no-one denies that there was some sort of technology "transfer" from the AL-31 into the WS-10, especially later variants - but that it was based on it was also never confirmed and in fact even more vehemently denied.
So the TOT bit cannot be totally wrong then
 
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WS10 is derived from AL31/31-F1.
WS10 incorp AL31/AL31-F1 core. Besides it carries FADEC parts of which are proprietry with Lylka Saturn.


Since when? This is indeed an often raised claim but it was always vehemently rejected. From all we know, the WS-10's development was initiated in 1986 and CAC got delivery of the first AL-31FN only much later ... so do you want to assume, they took one AL-31F from their Flanker series, they received from 1992 on and redesigned it again? and already in 2002 the first WS-10 Taihang was tested on a J-11WS engine testbed?

IMO highly unlikely...

So the TOT bit cannot be totally wrong then


But why should Pakistan then need ToT from Russia, if only the core and FACEC should be Russian and otherwise everything is Chinese? Do you really think China would sell those J-10Cs with WS-10 when at the same time Pakistan get's ToT for certain parts from Russia? It makes no sense at all.
 
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There is a huge difference between security and non-security relationship. China's largest partners are America and the EU. There are a lot of desires in business community on both sides to keep the tight relationship going. But when it comes to security and geopolitics, there is a lot of alarm bells going off right now in US military about the growing Chinese power. America regards any country even somewhat close to China as a security concern. Do you have Huawei in your country? If you do, you are on the do not trust list. If Pakistan wants access to advanced US equipments, it would need to completely leave the Chinese sphere. Even with that, it would not have the same access to military export that India would have access to. At this point, US does not view India with anywhere near the same urgency it views China.

At some point, China will probably want to have greater access to military base in Pakistan like America has in its biggest allies (due in large part to Pakistan's location near the gulf). Since 2015, we've left the period of GWOT for America. Now, it's focus is solely on China. Pakistan in its current form is not viewed as an asset but as supporting the top peer competitor. So, just keep these things in mind.

Pakistan does not need to keep its current relationship with China. China will look for new partners if Pakistan is not willing to pick it ahead of America.
As things stand right now, China itself has been providing rare earths to American defense industry; LM included. While American companies continue to fund research within Chinese universities. All of this still goes on and hasn’t been entirely pulled a plug on.

You do need to see that these relationships are opaque and will continue to remain so, for a while. China itself doesn’t want to decouple from the West, at least visibly as much as the US wants it and has made a show for it.

Pakistan is absolutely not taken as a trusted partner, by the US. I’d agree on this. Hence the need for Pak to walk the tight rope, without compromising its west based weapon systems (spares, upgrades et al). It’ll take sometime before the situation changes, it’ll not be an overnight process, just like it’s not for China. Within last two / three years the number of Chinese systems entering service in all three arms has been without a precedent in Pakistani history. This continued trend will help ease off dependence on the west and hence getting done with the whole carrot and stick bit. Chinese leadership isn’t providing access to tech to Pak, for without reason.

Pakistani security concerns are majorly about India. The more US continues to support it, the less reliant Pakistan eventually want to be on the US ultimately. This is a forgone conclusion.
 
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Since when? This is indeed an often raised claim but it was always vehemently rejected. From all we know, the WS-10's development was initiated in 1986 and CAC got delivery of the first AL-31FN only much later ... so do you want to assume, they took one AL-31F from their Flanker series, they received from 1992 on and redesigned it again? and already in 2002 the first WS-10 Taihang was tested on a J-11WS engine testbed?

IMO highly unlikely...




But why should Pakistan then need ToT from Russia, if only the core and FACEC should be Russian and otherwise everything is Chinese? Do you really think China would sell those J-10Cs with WS-10 when at the same time Pakistan get's ToT for certain parts from Russia? It makes no sense at all.
I am not knowledgeable enough to say for certain, or even make a guess.
But the one thing I can say is that in international politics many unusual partnerships happen and make sense.
 
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WS10 is derived from AL31/31-F1.
No, you are simply wrong on this. The timeline does not work at all. It's core was designed based on the core of CFM56. All Chinese sources have said this. Keep in mind, the same sources have also said WS-13 was copied from RD-93. There is no reason for them to admit to one and not the other. More importantly, WS-10's recent variants are more advanced than the most recent variants of AL-31. There is no reason for China to copy off Russians.

Now, China did have significant experience with AL-31 due to its humongous MRO facility where all the maintenance and overhauling of Chinese AL-31F/N engines were done. So, it's possible that some of the things they learnt from those work were applied to WS-10 project. We don't know how much that would be.

If we look at how long it took them to be comfortable completely replace AL-31s with WS-10s, China took the long and hard way to learn how to develop a turbofan engine and putting it into production.
 
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Soft-Warning
Hi,

On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.

Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".

When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.

Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.

@Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.

She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.

Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.

But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---

There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????

Guys wait and see.
 
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sheesh take a chill pill @Deino @MastanKhan

this is an internet forum, if @messiach is making a claim and you don't agree with it than let it be?

i believe with geo political scenario and national interests ANY and ALL collaborations including TOT is possible, it might sound stupid to you but every nation has it's own interest and long term goals behind such things

Not so long back we had people making fun on the possibilities of VT4, Z10s, HQ4 and even J-10s, lets take J10s for instance i PERSONALLY think that PAF has been going back and forth with Chinese for around 8-10 years, Our feedback meant making changes and we got the aircraft tailor made, China on the other hand gets the advantage of perfecting their platform based upon feedback from our human resources.
 
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sheesh take a chill pill @Deino @MastanKhan

this is an internet forum, if @messiach is making a claim and you don't agree with it than let it be?

i believe with geo political scenario and national interests ANY and ALL collaborations including TOT is possible, it might sound stupid to you but every nation has it's own interest and long term goals behind such things

Not so long back we had people making fun on the possibilities of VT4, Z10s, HQ4 and even J-10s, lets take J10s for instance i PERSONALLY think that PAF has been going back and forth with Chinese for around 8-10 years, Our feedback meant making changes and we got the aircraft tailor made, China on the other hand gets the advantage of perfecting their platform based upon feedback from our human resources.
But it's also about quality control...

There needs to be some form of credibility, but apparently she is credible, so maybe?
 
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Hi,

On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.

Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".

When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.

Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.

@Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.

She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.

Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.

But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---

There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????

Guys wait and see.


Oh well! Minor correction to your comment at first: it is not correct that "she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children", in fact she posted very short one-liner sentences that left more questions than gave answers. As such like a student at the university or a kid at school, those who listen carefully, think on their own and add questions in case they still have concerns are the true good pupils, not those who accept all the get and forget or ignore to think!

Anyway, you know pretty well, why your "right to post has been taken away" from the Block 3 thread :azn: and now you are continuing your offence here?!! Get mature man, go out and search for a hobby, a meaning in life since you seem so much frustrated that your rants against me or another member, who has an independent and critical thinking is almost only pitiful and lamentable. I feel sorry for anyone with so much hate and anger and so much lack of understanding since you actually did not even listen to what my point of concern was and therefore this question.

In fact I strongly disagree and contradict what @messiach said and regardless our different opinions, I have all the deepest respect for her since she took her valuable time - as it seems my call on her was unjustified in the form I noted her since as it seems, she simply has not much time to lurk around in forums, sorry for that! :what: - to try to explain, and that's for what forums are!

@tphuang @siegecrossbow @Beast @lcloo and @IblinI may better explain to you why I disagree in case you don't even want to think about my concerns since I'm a "Kraut", but maybe you listen to them.

Bet an d take care ... life is too short and too beautiful to constantly be desperate and angry. :smitten:

sheesh take a chill pill @Deino @MastanKhan

this is an internet forum, if @messiach is making a claim and you don't agree with it than let it be?


Sorry to contradict ... but that for what forums are, to ask in case of disagreement for an explanation!
 
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But it's also about quality control...

There needs to be some form of credibility, but apparently she is credible, so maybe?

i agree with QC, even in QC there is a margin of error and also past history, if it was a troll having habit of making tall claims i would understand but @messiach i think is FAR from being a troll and have been a valuable member of this forum, plus she still insist on her claim of TOT

so we have a choice

1. We think xyz's claim is HAWAI fire and move along
2. We get excited and believe xyz

the route i think we ARE taking here is

3. We think xyz's claims are wrong, lets ridicule xyz on being wrong and ask them to say sorry for being wrong

my only objection with all due respect is why we take such things so seriously, i have seen mature members such as Mastan losing their cool here

bhai kissi ku meri baat buri lagi hu tu i am sorry, i am here to read, share and learn not be part of some soap opera FFS!
 
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Oh well! Minor correction to your comment at first: it is not correct that "she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children", in fact she posted very short one-liner sentences that left more questions than gave answers. As such like a student at the university or a kid at school, those who listen carefully, think on their own and add questions in case they still have concerns are the true good pupils, not those who accept all the get and forget or ignore to think!

Anyway, you know pretty well, why your "right to post has been taken away" from the Block 3 thread :azn: and now you are continuing your offence here?!! Get mature man, go out and search for a hobby, a meaning in life since you seem so much frustrated that your rants against me or another member, who has an independent and critical thinking is almost only pitiful and lamentable. I feel sorry for anyone with so much hate and anger and so much lack of understanding since you actually did not even listen to what my point of concern was and therefore this question.

In fact I strongly disagree and contradict what @messiach said and regardless our different opinions, I have all the deepest respect for her since she took her valuable time - as it seems my call on her was unjustified in the form I noted her since as it seems, she simply has not much time to lurk around in forums, sorry for that! :what: - to try to explain, and that's for what forums are!

@tphuang @siegecrossbow @Beast @lcloo and @IblinI may better explain to you why I disagree in case you don't even want to think about my concerns since I'm a "Kraut", but maybe you listen to them.

Bet an d take care ... life is too short and too beautiful to constantly be desperate and angry. :smitten:




Sorry to contradict ... but that for what forums are, to ask in case of disagreement for an explanation!
Sir your concerns are right
WS-10 is derived from CFM-56 which is written everywhere in internet and I think we can compare it with AL-31 like comparing GE with pratt and Whitney for F-16 @messiach didn't explain anything, pardon me but I thought she was just trying to put a blanket over what she said about TOT of AL-31

As far as @MastanKhan is concern, You should only read his replies just for amusement I mean He was pretending like As if he the CEO of Lookheed Martin and pretending @Deino was asking Chairman of Lookheed Martin @messiach to explain something out of ordinary.
Such a retard one !
 
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Hi,

On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.

Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".

When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.

Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.

@Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.

She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.

Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.

But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---

There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????

Guys wait and see.
You are consistently rude, patronising, and ungracious. I hate when people's expression is censored by authority. In your case, however, I wish the moderators would ban you temporarily.
 
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