PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[MH.Yang]

Perhaps Turkey will go for a western/domestic engine and Pakistan would go for a Chinese engine, as it already operates the WS-10 on the J-10? Also, Pakistan procuring the T-FX doesn’t mean it doesn’t also want to induct an export variant of the J-35. The PAF has 75 F-16s to eventually replace as well as hundreds of Mirages, F-7s, and older JF-17s by the time these two 5th generation fighters could be available for procurement.

Cant find the article at the moment, but if I remember correctly, the PAF chief said he wanted an all 5th generation force. The only likely way that would be achieved is a reduced signature JF-17 or J-10, loyal wingman drones from either Turkey or China (or both), and both the T-FX and the J-35. This is all the more reason Pakistan needs to get its political stability and economics back on track, but I digress. Therefore the J-10CE is a stopgap IMHO, a much needed one but still a stopgap, to fill in what the PAF had hoped the Block 72 would have given them; a decent 4.5 Gen AESA equipped frontline fighter for the 2020s.

All 5G?

Dude, even Americans cannot achieve the goal you mentioned for a long time.

First, let's do all 4G.

 

[FuturePAF]

Stealthified J-10 or JF-17 will not be 5th generation. Neither of those things would be able to supercruise and have internal bays and that's even if bothered with which no doubt would not be bothered with since stealthifying a 4th generation fighter is simply too complicated to be worth it.

PAF wanting a totally 5th generation airforce can only happen in a time when basically 5th generation fighters are next in line to be retired in the same way J-7 production stopped and airframes are getting retired. To have full 5th gen airforce means retiring even 4th gen fighters which many airforces in the world still don't even have.

Drones are not fighters and even Dark Sword isn't a total substitute for a manned 5th generation fighter.

Perhaps a reduced RCS J-10 may not be considered fully 5th generation, but it could go a long way into making an affordable competitive platform for the long term backbone of operators like the PAF. The alternative maybe to cut the fleet size or operate more drones. Drones which may not be able to fully match the air warfare needs to take on enemy fighters in air to air combat. The Su-75 Checkmate showed a potential design route the J-10 could follow.

 

[MH.Yang]

It would be a good choice for PAF to cooperate with PLAAF to develop a land-based version of J-35.

Yes, I also think PAF and PLAAF have a lot of room for cooperation. At present, however, PLA resources should be tilted towards the Navy J-35. After all, 003 will be in service soon.

And I don't think Pakistan should equip 5G fighters earlier than India. This may lead India to abandon AMCA project and buy F35 instead. Does PAF want to face AMCA or F35?

 

[FuturePAF]

All 5G?

Dude, even Americans cannot achieve the goal you mentioned for a long time.

First, let's do all 4G.

It’s not what I proposed, it was an aspiration of a PAF chief, if I remember correctly. Could someone find the article where he mentioned it?

Yes, I also think PAF and PLAAF have a lot of room for cooperation. At present, however, PLA resources should be tilted towards the Navy J-35. After all, 003 will be in service soon.

Naval developments, where China has to achieve technological parity with other nations, will drive modernization.

I hope the PAF units that operate out of Karachi also exercise with the PLANAF. It would be beneficial for both. Especially now that the PAF operates the J-10. Long range maritime strike practice and air to air combat between the J-10 and flanker variants (especially off carriers), far out and over water, would be the kind exercises that would benefit both.

 

[serenity]

Maybe PLA Air Force and navy wanna induct land version of J35.

Anything is possible.

No way PLAAF also want J-35.

J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.

J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.

J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.

Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.

Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.

Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?

J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.

 

[Deino]

Guys … why posting and discussing the J-35 in the PAF J-10 thread when there are several threads on this type already available??

 

[FuturePAF]

No way PLAAF also want J-35.

J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.

J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.

J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.

Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.

Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.

Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?

J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.

Perhaps a Chinese project similar to how the Su-75 design learned from the Su-57 design; so a single engine J-20? A development of the J-10? The proposed stealthy J-10D? It could probably be developed relatively quickly.

Considering the PAF already operates the J-10 it would probably be keen to acquire it as well. A number of other nations, especially those facing the F-35 may want to acquire it as well.

If the recent J-10 dorsal spine photos show anything, the J-10 can still be developed further if there is a demand.

I acknowledge the follow is fan art but to used to illustrate a point. Btw, the design would have to be modified to fit two side bays or a design similar to the SAAB FS-2020 with front and rear bays; 4 BVR and 2 WVR missiles would be a decent realistic load out. Powered by the WS-15 it could probably hold its own against the F-35.

 

[serenity]

Perhaps a reduced RCS J-10 may not be considered fully 5th generation, but it could go a long way into making an affordable competitive platform for the long term backbone of operators like the PAF. The alternative maybe to cut the fleet size or operate more drones. Drones which may not be able to fully match the air warfare needs to take on enemy fighters in air to air combat. The Su-75 Checkmate showed a potential design route the J-10 could follow.

That is basically designing a fighter from new.

You cannot modify an existing design this much without spending the level of engineering effort that is equal to a new project.

Even J-10A to J-10B is such a leap in design changes it is possibly the greatest modification to a design in modern fighter history outside of F-15EX and F-18A to Superhornet.

Perhaps a Chinese project similar to how the Su-75 design learned from the Su-57 design; so a single engine J-20? A development of the J-10? The proposed stealthy J-10D?

But one is real and has real service and production while the other is fantasy. Su-75... like I don't want to talk much about it at risk of offending any Russian readers.

Let's just say in what you're proposing here (with the assumption that Su-75 is realistic and not much more than a Qaher 313 type similar situation - attract investment and buyers before you spend the money and effort or totally for a PR attempt).

J-20 and J-10 are not related in the way Su-57 and "Su-75" are. What you're proposing is a J-20 lite a "J-02" if you will where it is a single engined J-20 "making use of J-20's already completed work". This aircraft is simply not J-10 and J-10 cannot become such an aircraft either. Just simply forget "stealthifying" J-10 or any 4th generation fighter. The best effort is like F-15 Silent Eagle and that project got scrapped, never finding a customer. It was also not completed... due to obvious reasons explained here if one can figure it out. It's simply not worth stealthifying a 4th gen fighter. By stealthifying I don't mean achieving just some aspects of low observability using electronic methods or whatever but by making it as 5th gen in appearance as possible with the obvious qualities that come with that "appearance".

 

[MH.Yang]

No way PLAAF also want J-35.

J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.

J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.

J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.

Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.

Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.

Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?

J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.

I agree that PLAAF has little demand for the air force version of the J-35.

However, military issues are often the continuation of political issues, and we should also consider the political necessity of the air force version of the J-35.

Not only Pakistan, many countries will need the air force version of the J-35 in the future. The air force J-35 is not necessarily a loss making project

As we all know, PLA is not short of funds.

 

[zhxy]

J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.

Your point would be correct if China's GDP = Russia, but the truth is that China's GDP is 10 times bigger.

Finance is not an issue, most recently China spent more than 30 billion USD to buy Airbus aircraft

PLAAF don't want to buy J-3x because they don't want or need => OK
PLAAF does not want to buy J-3x because it causes delay in China's 6th generation aircraft program => Not happening.

 

[serenity]

Perhaps a Chinese project similar to how the Su-75 design learned from the Su-57 design; so a single engine J-20? A development of the J-10? The proposed stealthy J-10D? It could probably be developed relatively quickly.

Considering the PAF already operates the J-10 it would probably be keen to acquire it as well. A number of other nations, especially those facing the F-35 may want to acquire it as well.

If the recent J-10 dorsal spine photos show anything, the J-10 can still be developed further if there is a demand.

I acknowledge the follow is fan art but to used to illustrate a point. Btw, the design would have to be modified to fit two side bays or a design similar to the SAAB FS-2020 with front and rear bays; 4 BVR and 2 WVR missiles would be a decent realistic load out.

View attachment 864573

The artworks here don't work.

Material for stealth means different skin and underlying structure. Changing underlying structure is changing everything.

We haven't even gotten to the avionics and different sensors to incorporate. The passive sensors required in places that 4th gens don't use or don't bother hiding.

At this point already the engineering effort is futile.

Then there's the total change in balance and stability needs new FCS.

What this endeavor would be is like changing the Eiffel Tower to look like the Burj Khalifa. Why not just build one as intended rather than change something that has a purpose.

We haven't even gotten to the point that such a new fighter means new factory, new equipment, new staff, new skills to train and develop and mature. New costs $$$$$$$$

The purpose of J-10C as it is for PLAAF is to be budget fighter that is 100% as effective at 70% of the tasks for example. Where a bombing or recon or CAP mission doesn't requrie the range and payload or stealth of J-16 or J-20 or even a J-11A.

So such a project is silly, stupid, not worthwhile, expensive, defeats the purpose of the original which has still a valid and useful purpose (cheap and fast to make while advanced and capable enough).

So much more to say but can't be bothered.

Let's just conclude these sorts of entertaining ideas as nothing more than silliness and fantasy thinking sometimes just for fun.

I agree that PLAAF has little demand for the air force version of the J-35.

However, military issues are often the continuation of political issues, and we should also consider the political necessity of the air force version of the J-35.

Not only Pakistan, many countries will need the air force version of the J-35 in the future.

As we all know, PLA is not short of funds.

That would be corruption and a waste of resources. A less than optimal spread and allocation.

If we do see it in PLAAF, it is either corruption to favor SAC a bit and give them a PLAAF contract too for 5th gen fighter or it is because 6th gen is further away from service that somehow also coincides with J-3x for PLAAF being useful... even if it is useful by being easier to make and cheaper than J-20. I doubt that since it is double engined. That is already enough to tell us J-35 and J-3x hypothetical are not inexpensive at all and won't be cheap to run.

 

[serenity]

Your point would be correct if China's GDP = Russia, but the truth is that China's GDP is 10 times bigger.

Finance is not an issue, most recently China spent more than 30 billion USD to buy Airbus aircraft

PLAAF don't want to buy J-3x because they don't want or need => OK
PLAAF does not want to buy J-3x because it causes delay in China's 6th generation aircraft program => Not happening.

I think given finite resources, it would still no matter what be better to devote to more focused approach rather than a shotgun approach to acquisition.

It means more resources for 6th gen or more resources for J-20 and different version of it for different purposes. J-3x and J-20 just overlap too much in purpose and capability but J-20 is simply better, except in stealth due to being larger and more surfaces. But stealth to China isn't quite that important and all aspect stealth is more important than a slightly tiny bit higher RCS in some angles for J-20 compared to J-35/ J-3x.

Only advantage I can think of for J-3x would be if it is much easier and faster to make than J-20 due to newer manufacturing technologies involved (which have been actually revealed in some detail in Chinese sphere) that makes it worth also buying for PLAAF as a "lo" to hi of J-20. Anything new in capability that can go on J-3x can easily be made for J-20 too as J-20 has much more space and much more available power. It's cheaper to develop a MLU J-20 for anything crazy capable that is going in J-3x by rethinking J-20 and modifying that than new platform.

 

[FuturePAF]

The artworks here don't work.

Material for stealth means different skin and underlying structure. Changing underlying structure is changing everything.

We haven't even gotten to the avionics and different sensors to incorporate. The passive sensors required in places that 4th gens don't use or don't bother hiding.

At this point already the engineering effort is futile.

Then there's the total change in balance and stability needs new FCS.

What this endeavor would be is like changing the Eiffel Tower to look like the Burj Khalifa. Why not just build one as intended rather than change something that has a purpose.

We haven't even gotten to the point that such a new fighter means new factory, new equipment, new staff, new skills to train and develop and mature. New costs $$$$$$$$

The purpose of J-10C as it is for PLAAF is to be budget fighter that is 100% as effective at 70% of the tasks for example. Where a bombing or recon or CAP mission doesn't requrie the range and payload or stealth of J-16 or J-20 or even a J-11A.

So such a project is silly, stupid, not worthwhile, expensive, defeats the purpose of the original which has still a valid and useful purpose (cheap and fast to make while advanced and capable enough).

So much more to say but can't be bothered.

Let's just conclude these sorts of entertaining ideas as nothing more than silliness and fantasy thinking sometimes just for fun.



That would be corruption and a waste of resources. A less than optimal spread and allocation.

If we do see it in PLAAF, it is either corruption to favor SAC a bit and give them a PLAAF contract too for 5th gen fighter or it is because 6th gen is further away from service that somehow also coincides with J-3x for PLAAF being useful... even if it is useful by being easier to make and cheaper than J-20. I doubt that since it is double engined. That is already enough to tell us J-35 and J-3x hypothetical are not inexpensive at all and won't be cheap to run.

Then what kind of design did you have in mind? Something akin to the SAAB FS2020?

It’s a design built around a 170 kn engine. The Swedes have done a lot of design work for it. Tested scale models, and probably applied the knowledge to their share of the tempest project being worked on with the British. So it maybe a decent design for WS-10B3 (exportable down the line) to be used with, while the WS-15 (probably export restricted) is freed up for the J-20.

Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020

Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020

defence.pk

Probably would make an ideal design, because an unmanned version could be built , for manned/unmanned teaming.

A similar unmanned design is what the Turks seem to be going with.

Turkey begins assembly of MIUS ‘loyal wingman' prototype

Turkey has begun assembly of the Bayraktar MIUS (Bayraktar Combat Unmanned Aircraft System) ‘loyal wingman' prototype, images released by manufacturer Baykar Makina...

www.janes.com

But back to the topic of the thread. Do you think the J-10 has reached the end of what can even reasonably expected of the design, as far as the PLAAF sees it?

 

[lovenig]

Then what kind of design did you have in mind? Something akin to the SAAB FS2020?

It’s a design built around a 170 kn engine. The Swedes have done a lot of design work for it. Tested scale models, and probably applied the knowledge to their share of the tempest project being worked on with the British. So it maybe a decent design for WS-10B3 (exportable down the line) to be used with, while the WS-15 (probably export restricted) is freed up for the J-20.

Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020

Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020

defence.pk

Probably would make an ideal design, because an unmanned version could be built , for manned/unmanned teaming.

A similar unmanned design is what the Turks seem to be going with.

Turkey begins assembly of MIUS ‘loyal wingman' prototype

Turkey has begun assembly of the Bayraktar MIUS (Bayraktar Combat Unmanned Aircraft System) ‘loyal wingman' prototype, images released by manufacturer Baykar Makina...

www.janes.com

But back to the topic of the thread. Do you think the J-10 has reached the end of what can even reasonably expected of the design, as far as the PLAAF sees it?

All of his opinions are basically based on imagination. Don't expect him to have any authoritative sources, there has never been any information that proves the PLAAF doesn't need the J-3X or J21.

 

[Raider 21]

No way PLAAF also want J-35.

J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.

J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.

J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.

Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.

Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.

Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?

J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.

They termed it J-35. That's jokes