PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bro the dichotomy of US/China interests will become more pronounced going forwards.

Pakistan is a Chinese ally if there ever was one in the current situation.

I wouldn't bank on ANYTHING from the US at this point.

And even if you do get something, I would see that as a a sort of trojan horse to Pakistani interests.

Shifts in world alignment have been accelerated by the Ukraine situation.

Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.

We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).

Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.

Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.

I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8

 

[luciferdd]

Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.

We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).

Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.

Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.

I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8

That's not importance,the key point is they(the us gov) don't trust you and they prefer India than you,know?

 

[Taimoor Khan]

They are not here yet. Weather en route is bad.

Blk 3s are ready to take part on 23rd fly past.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That's not importance,the key point is they(the us gov) don't trust you and they prefer India than you,know?

The US gov't doesn't respect us, but it definitely trusts us to pull through for them.

 

[PakLeader]

The US gov't doesn't respect us, but it definitely trusts us to pull through for them.

Disagree...there is definitely a trust deficit. They blame Pakistan for what happened in Afghanistan and do not trust us, why are we so reliant on China now for so many things now then? Pakistan is no position to openly go against the U.S and cannot rely on the U.S. It never could. As China rises we will be tilting more towards them, history had taught us the Americans are only our friends when it serves them. The future will be an interesting balancing act.

 

[tphuang]

Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.

We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).

Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.

Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.

I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8

You need a wakeup call. China regards you as iron brothers. America regards you as the place that harbors terrorists. I'm not trying to be mean here. Just telling you how things are as someone who has lived in America for many years. You can act like you don't need to chose, but America will not give you that choice.

Maybe if this is how Pakistan really feels, it should articulate this belief to China and deal with the consequences. It should not string China along thinking that it has an ally in Pakistan.

 

[dy1022]

You need a wakeup call. China regards you as iron brothers. America regards you as the place that harbors terrorists. I'm not trying to be mean here. Just telling you how things are as someone who has lived in America for many years. You can act like you don't need to chose, but America will not give you that choice.

Maybe if this is how Pakistan really feels, it should articulate this belief to China and deal with the consequences. It should not string China along thinking that it has an ally in Pakistan.

Yeah, more and more people in China do not belive in this "iron" things, the Chinese Government shouldn't share core military tecs to anyone in this world. Business is business, nothing more or less.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.

We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).

Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.

Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.

I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8

Spot on!

Actually it's not Pakistan taking sides this time, it's US/West's policies which are pushing Pakistan in opposite camp ... calling it camp is not appropriate as in 21st century US and China are the biggest trading partners of each other. Neither can survive economically without each other. These economic relations began in the 1970s thanks to Pakistan and 4th industrial revolution. Cold Peace (also called misleadingly Cold War 2.0) is different from Cold War due to many reasons. Here you can on one side at one matter while in opposing camp on another. Iran is a member of 'axis of evil' while in Iraq, Iran helped Americans on many fronts. Similarly, Pakistan being strategic partner with China, is not in enmity of the US of its own, its restive history in near past and few lobbies from within the US painting Pakistan in such a light. This narrative building on Pakistan is something that is causing friction in bilateral relations and now the latest addition to it was "Absolutely Not" by PM Khan. But even that statement was not something extraordinary for a sovereign state, although US is not used to this sort of Pakistan. Pakistan and China are neighbors with completely aligned strategic interests in defense and security, economy, foreign affairs, and many more spheres of statecraft. The kind of investment China has made in Pakistan, the US simply can't. In other areas, US holds main importance in our international affairs like exports, IMF etc.

In this increasingly integrated world, it would be foolish for any state to go for a camp politics and this is what Islamabad is signaling. Growing Sino-Pakistan relations are also propelled by US choice of selecting India as strategic partner in her Pivot to Asia strategy during Obama regime era and under Biden this has found new impetus. In order to balance things, Pakistan and China are forced to join forces. India, in fact, has declared Pakistan and China as joint threat despite the fact that India and China are big trading partners with more than 100 billion USD trade annually. This also indicates the complexity of policy formation on global level and bilateral level with the same country. If India can't go to full-blown war or enmity with China, how can Pakistan even think about the same viz-a-viz the US? Only problem right now is Pakistan is trying to get out of transactional bilateral relations with the Washington as both countries have been operating since 1947. Pakistan demands relations on equal footing but for Washington it's not possible due to multiple reasons.

For Pakistan, the best option is to find common grounds with the US outside the domains of security and finance like climate change, ransomware, regional security forums where the US is also a member, technical education, culture, health, e-governance, infrastructure etc. and get what it requires (if there is any such thing left now) for its defense on non-discounted rates. It will increase the cost but will save the cost which country will have to pay in some other areas while keep pushing in house R&D with help of friendly countries. There is absolutely no wisdom in following zero-sum relations with or against anyone and my assessment this is exactly where Islamabad is heading towards, creating healthy balance of relations with both China and the US. How other party responds is not dependent on us.

J-10C is not the end of Pak-China defense relations. It will grow and the US knows this well but for them bigger problem is how now China is giving access to Pakistani trader in its market. Pakistan's export to China jumped 69% in 2021 alone taking it to 3.25 Billion USD under the FTA whose second phase was signed just in 2019, against 5 Billion USD with the US with whom we have trading ties since 1947.

 

[Beast]

Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.

We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).

Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.

Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.

I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8

Another delusion. Pakistan has already official join the Chinese camp. With US courting India, Pakistan can never be in US equation. US see India as an effective counter to China, a bigger economy for US to milk. This is worsen with US leaving Afghanistan, Pakistan has zero benefit for US. We can see US blocking engine deal for T-129K and list Pakistan as supporter of terror group.

Pakistan has know that which we can see the last few years of pivot towards China. If you can prove US see Pakistan more important than India. Then I will eat back my words.

Any Pakistanis still seeing getting US engine or more F-16 is an act of treason. Purposely jeopardize Pakistan national security

 

[araz]

Care to explain, why Russia and not much more likely China? Do you really think a Russian engine will find its way into a Turkish-Pakistani joint development when in parallel the Pakistani AF is using Chinese engines in its later fighter acquisition and Turkey as a NATO member in any way won't ever get a Russian engine?

@Deino
My only reservation will be that the Chinese will not want to-support a potential competitor to their market. We hear a lot of good things but in the bargain a lot of wrangling and nit picking is left to the side. It has never been a case of "Pakistan asks and China provides". There are quite a few examples of that from subs to ships.
A

 

[Vapnope]

Another delusion. Pakistan has already official join the Chinese camp. With US courting India, Pakistan can never be in US equation. US see India as an effective counter to China, a bigger economy for US to milk. This is worsen with US leaving Afghanistan, Pakistan has zero benefit for US. We can see US blocking engine deal for T-129K and list Pakistan as supporter of terror group.

Pakistan has know that which we can see the last few years of pivot towards China. If you can prove US see Pakistan more important than India. Then I will eat back my words.

Any Pakistanis still seeing getting US engine or more F-16 is an act of treason. Purposely jeopardize Pakistan national security

There is no black and white when it comes to relations amongst countries unless you have an active war going on.
We are not in active war with US hence our relations would continue to varying degree, same is true for China and US relations and China and Indian relations.

We understand that US would not provide "Offensive" weapons to Pakistan and Pakistan would be reliant on China for that matter however we continue to have USAID programs and exports to US because military procurement isn't the only thing that matters for Pakistan.

In essence, Pakistan would continue to balance her relationship with China and US without making an enemy out of any two countries.

 

[kursed]

Think Pakistan is trying to walk a tight rope here. And this point needs to be understood. It's not rich like China where it can force the EU and US to talk to it, or take it seriously. At the same time, it would not want to be treated as an international pariah state like Iran or North Korea, and get disconnected from international monetary and trade systems. In spite of Pak-China bonhomie, Pakistan's biggest export destinations continue to be in the West. That's where pretty much most of its money coming from, alongside remittances from Pakistanis in the ME.

You can see how complex the situation has become for Pakistan, when in spite of huge pressure to not visit Russia, PM IK still went there, pretty much in the middle of a war - but at the same time, COAS was visiting EU to reassure the bloc.

There've been repercussions of the visit nonetheless, with the National Bank getting hit with a terror financing fine and PTI Gov being declared by Bloomberg as a failure in tackling Covid at home. In the coming months, Khan Gov will be targeted by more of such disinfo campaigns. But yet, economically it makes little sense for Pakistan to cut off or to antagonize the West. Even China would not approve of the same, it does not want another basket case of a country at its hand to help survive. If anything an economically sound, militarily confident but massively friendly Pak works far more in China's favor - all the same.

Now, between all of this, there's a very small role that military to military contacts cultivated over generations play and I doubt Pakistan would lose it just like that. But military has a sizable force now that's originated in China. There's no way, that China does not enjoy a massive voice inside GHQ.

 

[Beast]

There is no black and white when it comes to relations amongst countries unless you have an active war going on.
We are not in active war with US hence our relations would continue to varying degree, same is true for China and US relations and China and Indian relations.

We understand that US would not provide "Offensive" weapons to Pakistan and Pakistan would be reliant on China for that matter however we continue to have USAID programs and exports to US because military procurement isn't the only thing that matters for Pakistan.

In essence, Pakistan would continue to balance her relationship with China and US without making an enemy out of any two countries.

I am not asking you to be enemy of US but stop any delusion of having hope on anymore US weapon which brings nothing but a hinderance. Asking for US engine for any future project is asking for trouble as suggest by some delusion members.

 

[Vapnope]

I am not asking you to be enemy of US but stop any delusion of having hope on anymore US weapon which brings nothing but a hinderance. Asking for US engine for any future project is asking for trouble as suggest by some delusion members.

I am sure our military planners know what they are doing and how they are doing. They have been doing it for 75 years now.

 

[帅的一匹]

There is no black and white when it comes to relations amongst countries unless you have an active war going on.
We are not in active war with US hence our relations would continue to varying degree, same is true for China and US relations and China and Indian relations.

We understand that US would not provide "Offensive" weapons to Pakistan and Pakistan would be reliant on China for that matter however we continue to have USAID programs and exports to US because military procurement isn't the only thing that matters for Pakistan.

In essence, Pakistan would continue to balance her relationship with China and US without making an enemy out of any two countries.

Quite reasonable.