Is Pak the national self-expression of the Indus Valley or is it remnant of N.Indian Islamic empires

[Old School]

How much of Pakistan is the legacy of the Durrani and the Sikh empires?

Zero.This is no different than India where British Raj and semi feudal culture is prevalent. Look at the Penal code and lingua Franca. Bastardized Khariboli is the lingua Franca in the northern Himalayan Sub-continent.
If any legacy, it is the tribalism through which Durranis and Sikhs ruled. They could not introduce a real Federal system. Durranis and Sikhs were no more than warlords, though they claimed to be Kings.

 

[Progressive1]

Yes but many of them have inferiority complex and think they are descendants from these invaders for example they say hindus hate Muslims because they ruled their country but they forgot that they are themselves are descendants of these Hindus who their ancestors became Muslims because of the Arab afghan Turkic Mongolian invaders that they glorify they make you feel that these invaders are their ancestors and not the ones who subjected their Hindu ancestors

Afghans of past are pashtuns , who mostly live in Pakistan , only minority of pakistanis claim arab/turkic descent, these pakistanis moslty are from citiies of lahore and karachi and they are overepresented in daispora , so it gives a wrong illusion , most rural punjabis/sindhis/pashtuns etc dont claim any forign ancestry , if you go to village of pakistan and say to a jatt or pashtun he has arab ancestry , he will start laughing.

 

[Clutch]

So Pak part of Indus Valley Civilization was a massive preparation exercise for the the then impending arrival of Islam

sure... if that's how you would like to digest it.

End of the day.. It is, what it is.

 

[Hamza913]

Yes but many of them have inferiority complex and think they are descendants from these invaders

Our culture has been preserved, the only reason you're Arab is because Saudis raped your ancestors and like a dog you took the culture of your rapists. Not too different to all the Indians who follow Hinduism, an Indo-European religion that started in the Indus (if anyone doubts me, I can bring out all the Tamil genocide quotes from Hindu scripture).

their ancestors became Muslims because of the Arab afghan Turkic Mongolian invaders

Idk if it's just because Iraqis are stupid or because the US bombed your house too hard, but there are more Pashtuns in Pakistan than Afghanistan. We also have Hazaras, one of our first military generals was literally a Hazara. Not to mention other ghazis like Raja Shadab Khan.

If we were so weak, you sand monkeys wouldn't have to keep barking at us to protect the Hijaz. Now, go lose another war to Israel in under a week.

Indus Valley was not known to the Umayyads when Muhammad bin Qasin marched over it in the 8th century.

They called the region Sind, as compared to the rest of the region which was called Hind.

Ghuori never knew about it.

He recognised it as being part of the Ghaznavid empire, again, unlike the rest of the sub-continent.

Neither did Babur.

He recognised it as part of the Lodi empire, also unlike most of the Indian sub-continent.

How much of Pakistan is the legacy of the Durrani and the Sikh empires?

Pakistan owes a fair bit to both, with Punjabis owing more to the Sikhs, and Pashtuns more to the Durranis.

The Sikhs firmly ensured KPK's destiny (and subsequently most Pashtuns) lay with the rest of the Indus Valley by conquering it. On the other hand, the Durranis also ensured that Islam maintained influence within the region.

 

[dani92]

Our culture has been preserved, the only reason you're Arab is because Saudis raped your ancestors and like a dog you took the culture of your rapists. Not too different to all the Indians who follow Hinduism, an Indo-European religion that started in the Indus (if anyone doubts me, I can bring out all the Tamil genocide quotes from Hindu scripture).



Idk if it's just because Iraqis are stupid or because the US bombed your house too hard, but there are more Pashtuns in Pakistan than Afghanistan. We also have Hazaras, one of our first military generals was literally a Hazara. Not to mention other ghazis like Raja Shadab Khan.

If we were so weak, you sand monkeys wouldn't have to keep barking at us to protect the Hijaz. Now, go lose another war to Israel in under a week.



They called the region Sind, as compared to the rest of the region which was called Hind.



He recognised it as being part of the Ghaznavid empire, again, unlike the rest of the sub-continent.



He recognised it as part of the Lodi empire, also unlike most of the Indian sub-continent.



Pakistan owes a fair bit to both, with Punjabis owing more to the Sikhs, and Pashtuns more to the Durranis.

The Sikhs firmly ensured KPK's destiny (and subsequently most Pashtuns) lay with the rest of the Indus Valley by conquering it. On the other hand, the Durranis also ensured that Islam maintained influence within the region.

Well maybe in the case of the Afghans they are native to Pakistan but not the Arabs or Turks or the Mongolia’s also I don’t understand why you say the Hindus are buttheart because the Muslims subjected their ancestors even though your own ancestors were subjected by the same invaders?!

Also you misguided individual Iraq was Semitic and Arabs long before Islam and the Arabs are not very different from other Semitic groups.

As for war against Israel it’s ironic coming from guy who his country ruined by tribal terrorists, separatism and couldn’t defeat India and America drone his country all the time

 

[Pax Pakistanica]

Yes but many of them have inferiority complex and think they are descendants from these invaders for example they say hindus hate Muslims because they ruled their country but they forgot that they are themselves are descendants of these Hindus who their ancestors became Muslims because of the Arab afghan Turkic Mongolian invaders that they glorify they make you feel that these invaders are their ancestors and not the ones who subjected their Hindu ancestors

it’s ironic coming from guy who his country ruined by tribal terrorists, separatism and couldn’t defeat India and America drone his country all the time

You are in no position to roast Pakistanis on separatism and terrorists when your entire nation is ravaged by civil strife between Sunnis and Shias, hundreds of Iranian proxies, a semi-autonomous Kurdish state to the North, and an inept national army which runs away from the battlefield.

 

[Pakistansdefender]

The old indus valley civilization is no more. Maybe some of their descendants live but overall they have long gone. Muslim invaders from the western side settled in these areas and the current population include their descendants. The only identity that unifies us is and should be Islam. I know this would hurt many as they fear Islam but without Islam, Pakistan would be divided into ethnicities.
Pakistan ka matlab kya Laa ilaha illalallah.

The Muslims that came and settle here, don't bring whole population here. They mingle with local people of Indus. As is shown that no major migration takes places in our areas.
So basically all of us are descendants of Indus.
The Turks after becoming muslims remain Turks. The Persians after becoming Muslims would remain Persian.
Pakistan has many ethnicities. Islam don't ban them.
Islam is always a binding and uniting factor. But that doesnt mean that we should leave our background.
People of Indus doesn't represent any religion. It only means people who live in the side of Indus. People who live in the land currently in Pakistan for 5000 years.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The Muslims that came and settle here, don't bring whole population here. They mingle with local people of Indus. As is shown that no major migration takes places in our areas.
So basically all of us are descendants of Indus.
The Turks after becoming muslims remain Turks. The Persians after becoming Muslims would remain Persian.
Pakistan has many ethnicities. Islam don't ban them.
Islam is always a binding and uniting factor. But that doesnt mean that we should leave our background.
People of Indus doesn't represent any religion. It only means people who live in the side of Indus. People who live in the land currently in Pakistan for 5000 years.

Bravo. As you so eloquently point out -

• Arabs [generic ethnic groups]remained Arabs after conversion to Islam.
• Iranians [generic ethnic groups] remained Iranians after conversion to Islam.
• Turks remained Turkish after conversion to Islam.
• Indonesians [the generic ethnic groupds] remained Indonesian after conversion to Islam.
• Coterminous Pakistan remained [generic ethnic groups] after conversion to Islam.
• etc

I am sure you have met reverts. Examples like Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall (born Marmaduke William Pickthall come to mind. He remained English. He remained the son of his father. His claim on his fathers estate stayed intact. He died a Englishman. He continued to speak English. But he had converted and was a Muslim.

Marmaduke Pickthall - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Marmaduke_Pickthall
Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall (born Marmaduke William Pickthall; 7 April 1875 – 19 May 1936) was a British Islamic scholar noted for his 1930 English translation of the Quran, called The Meaning of the Glorious Koran.

Also you misguided individual Iraq was Semitic and Arabs long before Islam

And we have been Indo-Europeans long before Islam.

Ps. I used qualified by using the "generic ethnic groups' for a reason. People tend to regard Turks, Iranians, Arabs, Indonesians as monolith and homogenous nations as opposed to Pakistan which is a composite of differant ethnic groups. The truth is more nuanced. Iranians, Turks or even Arabs are NOT homgenous single ethnic groups. Turkey has Kurds, Bulgars, Albanians, Greeks, Kosovars, Circassian etc that have been pulverized into a common Turkish identity. In Iran the Fars dominate but there are dozen other ethnic groups including Turkic Azerbaijanis. Arabs also have huge variety of differant ethnic groups like Berbers, Assyrians etc

 

[TNT]

The Muslims that came and settle here, don't bring whole population here. They mingle with local people of Indus. As is shown that no major migration takes places in our areas.
So basically all of us are descendants of Indus.
The Turks after becoming muslims remain Turks. The Persians after becoming Muslims would remain Persian.
Pakistan has many ethnicities. Islam don't ban them.
Islam is always a binding and uniting factor. But that doesnt mean that we should leave our background.
People of Indus doesn't represent any religion. It only means people who live in the side of Indus. People who live in the land currently in Pakistan for 5000 years.

Invasions in the past were not like nowadays. Huge armies of hundreds of thousands, along with food and weapons for months. The wars also were lengthy and many would settle, marry and have kids.
I agree Islam is a binding force and therefore we today feel one even being different ethnicities.
The OP wants us to relate more to the indus civilization than Islam. Indus valley civilization was thousands of years ago and were mostly driven out to tibet. The population today here are majority descendants of settlers from persia, turks, pashtuns, arabs, local mixed with them. Whatever oir ethnicity, we now feel one as muslims in Pakistan, relating more to our Islamic heritage rather than some old civilization long gone, who were pagans and had no idea about the world, neither do we have anything to relate to them except a river.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Zero.This is no different than India where British Raj and semi feudal culture is prevalent. Look at the Penal code and lingua Franca. Bastardized Khariboli is the lingua Franca in the northern Himalayan Sub-continent.
If any legacy, it is the tribalism through which Durranis and Sikhs ruled. They could not introduce a real Federal system. Durranis and Sikhs were no more than warlords, though they claimed to be Kings.

Interesting.....how would you differentiate between Kings and Warlords ??

 

[TNT]

Pakistan owes a fair bit to both, with Punjabis owing more to the Sikhs, and Pashtuns more to the Durranis.

Durranis are pashtun, they are not considered outsiders. Infact durranis or abdalis are one of main tribes of pashtuns.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The OP wants us to relate more to the indus civilization than Islam

The assumption is that we can't own both. We can. Iranians are Muslim but proud of their past. Turks are Muslim but proud of their pre-Islamic past. Accepting one does not negate the other as it was from 5,000 years ago.

The population today here are majority descendants of settlers

Population is a composite and made of layer after layer on top of layer making a composite. With the latest at top and oldest at bottom going through 1,000s of years of change.

 

[dani92]

You are in no position to roast Pakistanis on separatism and terrorists when your entire nation is ravaged by civil strife between Sunnis and Shias, hundreds of Iranian proxies, a semi-autonomous Kurdish state to the North, and an inept national army which runs away from the battlefield.

All that was a result of foreign invasion while your country was even invaded yet you have terrorists and corruption imagine if you got invaded by foreign power like Iraq what will happen?!

 

[Pax Pakistanica]

All that was a result of foreign invasion while your country was even invaded yet you have terrorists and corruption imagine if you got invaded by foreign power like Iraq what will happen?!

Those terrorists reside mostly in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (Waziristan region), and they have slowly withered away through time. As for getting invaded by a foreign power, Iraq should've trod carefully.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

The assumption is that we can't own both. We can. Iranians are Muslim but proud of their past. Turks are Muslim but proud of their pre-Islamic past. Accepting one does not negate the other as it was from 5,000 years ago.

Great answer

The Big Difference

Zoroastrianism is insignificant in the world stage now---->So Iranians can be proud Muslims and still celebrate their pre-Islamic past
Turkish Tengriism is insignificant in the world stage now---->So Turks can be proud Muslims and still celebrate their pre-Islamic past

Buddhism and Hinduism are Big Players in the region itself