Is Pak the national self-expression of the Indus Valley or is it remnant of N.Indian Islamic empires

[Indus Pakistan]

Zoroastrianism is insignificant in the world stage now
Turkish Tengriism is insignificant in the world stage now

Buddhism and Hinduism are Big Players in the region itself

I don't think that makes much differance. I have noticed that Christianity is more active and widespread in Africa then it is in Europe despite it having been forced on Africans by Europeans. Not only that the Christianity as practiced in Africa resembles the 18th product Europeans practiced rather than the the modern secular mish mash consumer mish mash modified Christianity you see in Europe.

All that was a result of foreign invasion while your country was even invaded yet you have terrorists and corruption imagine if you got invaded by foreign power like Iraq what will happen?!

Give the oil you sand mambos have Pakistan would have invaded and conquered all of the Arab world. The only thing you sandos have is .... oil.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I don't think that makes much differance. I have noticed that Christianity is more active and widespread in Africa then it is in Europe despite it having been forced on Africans by Europeans. Not only that the Christianity as practiced in Africa resembles the 18th product Europeans practiced rather than the the modern secular mish mash consumer mish mash modified Christianity you see in Europe.

To be fair 95%+ Europeans are post-Enlightenment Christians...Which means their they believe in the primacy of the Scientific Materialist world view but don't go all the way..They are not true atheists in the sense that cannot bring themselves to embracing a Darwinian world view..They still believe "morality" is "inherent" in the Universe..A true atheist for me would be the Communist dictators...

But yes it is true Europe exported the 16-18th century Magical Christianity to Africa which is pure drivel...This will come back to haunt them in decades to come...

I am of the opinion Pakistan can truly celebrate the secular aspects or the non-Islamic aspects of its past only when the immediate regions adjoining it also become Muslim

Persia started celebrating its Non-Islamic past with the Shahnameh only when the conversion project was truly over in the 10th century AD...A Shahnameh could not have come to existence in 7th,8th or early 9th century AD


To be fair it is only now the past few decades that Turks are celebrating their pre-Islamic past..I am yet to see works solely promoting Turkish pride or the Turkish Heavenly Wolf from the Middle Ages---->I may be wrong on this count though

 

[hussain0216]

All that was a result of foreign invasion while your country was even invaded yet you have terrorists and corruption imagine if you got invaded by foreign power like Iraq what will happen?!

We would fight back

Ñot role over and be humilated like Iraqis

Great answer

The Big Difference

Zoroastrianism is insignificant in the world stage now---->So Iranians can be proud Muslims and still celebrate their pre-Islamic past
Turkish Tengriism is insignificant in the world stage now---->So Turks can be proud Muslims and still celebrate their pre-Islamic past

Buddhism and Hinduism are Big Players in the region itself

This is possibly why we have such a visceral hatred for hindus and Indians

They are a current threat and modern day emnity based on recent history

Whilst Iranians and Turks effectively look fondly upon dead culture's

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Exclusiveness will take you home ... to your own self... Islam is an inclusive force bringing multitudes together. Race, language, background, titles will keep getting your circle smaller and smaller...

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

We would fight back

Ñot role over and be humilated like Iraqis



This is possibly why we have such a visceral hatred for hindus and Indians

They are a current threat and modern day emnity based on recent history

Whilst Iranians and Turks effectively look fondly upon dead culture's

Which is why I always loved @Indus Pakistan 's approach

Let's accept it Muslims of Pakistan will never ever forego Islam, even if they become atheists they will remain cultural Muslims
Let's accept it Hindus/Buddhists/Sikhs/Jains of India will never ever forego their respective denominations and will practice a cultural variation of their confession even if they became atheist---(birth, baby shower, first edible, engagement,marriage, death, funeral, remebrance service, holidays, festivals)

So what's the solution? @Indus Pakistan suggested several years back that there is a deep racial division between India and Pakistan, which is more than partially true but not ENTIRELY True, but more importantly a workable truth

This truth emerges though POST Indus Valley Civilization

You can see this truth through three major factors

1) The Battle of Ten Kings-->the most important historical event in the Rig Veda where a definite break happens between the tribes residing west of the Ravi and the Bharata dynasty which sponsored the Rig Veda ..dated to around 1500 BCE by accredited academic Western scholars (being a highly regarded neutral third party)

2) Concretization of this division in several chapters of the Mahabharata whose final rescension is from 400 AD

3) Failure of orthodox Hindu/Buddhist Empires from Gangetic core in pre-Islamic times to extend beyond Sialkot

Codifying the division between India and Pakistan as a racial division rather than a religious division, would bring much more calm and peace in the subcontinent...Pak will focus solely on the betterment of the Indus people rather than taking on the mandate of Indian Muslims..Indian Muslims will realize that their destiny lies with fellow Ganga brethren only

I said it once and will say it again---->the borders between India and Pakistan is no accident...if not for British..The Border would have definitely solidified in the 18th or 19th century itself.....with an independent Sikh EMpire facing in Pakistani Punjab in early 20th century, the same kind of liberation movements that the Ottoman Empire faced in the Balkans in the 19th and 20th century

 

[Old School]

Interesting.....how would you differentiate between Kings and Warlords ??

Very good question in term of political science. The difference is getting blurred these days. With the advent of issuing own Passports and currencies by ISIS and Libyan warlord Khalifa Haftar , it is now up to YOU to decide what constitutes a warlord.
Therefore, one's warlord is another one's king.
Another point in addition is that one must be economically and politically successful in order to advance his own racism. No one likes a dumb and poor white for the sake of the color of the skin.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

Noted geo-political commenter Caspian Report says it is the rump state of major Turkic empires that ruled over the vast expanse of Northern India..I feel religion has nothing to do with national self-identity and people coalesce around ethnicity,language,culture,geography ...Your thoughts please...I already timestamped the comment

your title is unrelated to content of the video.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

your title is unrelated to content of the video.

The content of the video is not important, only that one single utterance is

Very good question in term of political science. The difference is getting blurred these days. With the advent of issuing own Passports and currencies by ISIS and Libyan warlord Khalifa Haftar , it is now up to YOU to decide what constitutes a warlord.
Therefore, one's warlord is another one's king.
Another point in addition is that one must be economically and politically successful in order to advance his own racism. No one likes a dumb and poor white for the sake of the color of the skin.

I beg to differ..Many such men would be worshipped by women of various races if he happens to be below 45..especially in East Asia

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Juggernaut_is_here No idea who you are but clearly you have followed my writing for a long time. You do come across as eccentric if not even weird but I must also say you do come out with great points.

 

[Old School]

I agree to differ..Many such men would be worshipped by women of various races if he happens to be below 45..especially in East Asia

You misunderstood. I was talking about the Macro level nationalism with broader socio political acceptance. So called 'Indus' bigotries have no chance in Pakistan in the long term. Some color racists in PDF will be lynched to death by public mob at the streets of Lahore or Karachi if they act publicly in similar fashion. Real life is not the same as online forum.

 

[Hamza913]

but not the Arabs

Only the Ummayads made an incursion into the sub-continent, and they failed.

r Turks or the Mongolia’s

Hazaras are Mongols you dolt, I named them for a reason.

also I don’t understand why you say the Hindus are buttheart because the Muslims subjected their ancestors even though your own ancestors were subjected by the same invaders

That doesn't make any sense even as per you when you admit that large portions of Pakistan (as you ceded to my point about Pashtuns) are quite literally related to the very conquerors that seized the region. And I told you that there were others, like Raja Shadab Khan, Shahbaz Kamboj, Mir Chakar Rind, Ali Rai Anchan, Sikander Shah Mir, etc. It's not my fault if your illiterate Bedouin behind is unfamiliar with history.

Also you misguided individual Iraq was Semitic and Arabs long before Islam

And Pakistan was predominantly Indo-Iranian long before Islam, just like most of the Islamic conquerors who came into the Indian sub-continent. Muhammad Ghauri's family literally converted from Buddhism, a religion that came from the Indian sub-continent. If anything, Indo-Iranians are more similar to each other than different Semites.

As for war against Israel it’s ironic coming from guy who his country ruined by tribal terrorists, separatism and couldn’t defeat India and America drone his country all the time

You are literally speaking about one tiny area (not even a province) called FATA that doesn't even house 5% of the population. It being ravaged doesn't effect the rest of the country, and that's rich coming from an Iraqi. Americans literally hung your leader and replaced him with a puppet government. You also have the independent Kurds in the north, and ISIS still looms in background. You don't have a country, you have a sectarian ridden piece of dirt.

India is significantly larger than Israel, and were are locked in a stalemate due to nuclear weapons. Israel, on the other hand, has made you its b!tch. You can't do anything to it. The Jews own you. You're their lap dog. They say jump, your job is to only ask how high. You will never be independent, Allah has decided that your nation shall not get that favour.

 

[Pax Pakistanica]

Yea but why do they still glorify the invaders who raped their Hindu/Buddhist ancestors unless its Stockholm syndrome and inferiority complex?!

For the same reason that a lot of Indian Hindus and Sikhs cherish Shivaji and Banda Singh Bahadur. For both Pakistani Muslims, Indian Hindus and Sikhs, these historical figures are seen as victorious representatives of their religion which challenged and triumphed over the other religion through military victories. Both leaders have committed acts which by today's standards would be considered horrific.

Ibn Khaldun, who is considered the father of sociology coined the term "asabiyyah" which is a cyclical theory of empires.

In his book "Al Muqadimmah", he explains that ruling houses tend to emerge on the peripheries of great empires and use the much stronger ʿasabiyya present in those areas to their advantage, in order to bring about a change in leadership. This implies that the new rulers are at first considered "barbarians" by comparison to the old ones. As they establish themselves at the center of their empire, they become increasingly lax, coordinated, disciplined and watchful, and more concerned with maintaining their new power and lifestyle. In addition to this, they ensure that prosperity is maintained throughout their realm so that they may remain in power.

A good example of this would be Cyrus the Great, Orhan, or Genghis Khan. These leaders presented opportunities for others around their new civilization to live a healthy, and stable life. Many of the Christians in Anatolia moved to Orhan's realm during the Balkanization of the region for a better lifestyle despite the animosity between Christians and Muslims and Orhan's raids into Christian territories. Genghis Khan's hegemony over Central Asia allowed merchants a safe route for business without any sackings. Cyrus the Great with his Nomadic Persians arose from the Zagros Mountains and conquered the Media, Lydia, and the Neo-Babylonian Empire. The Iranians, Turks, and the Mongolians all look up to the aforementioned leaders of the past as they brought great glory to their people.

You insult the Arabs yet you follow their religion like a dog instead of following your so called indo Iranian religions

Sunni Islam is not an ethnic religion. The truth came with The Ishmaelite, and we follow it.

As for Israel we all know that the entire west was with them at the same time the west was against India while you have the west and China in your side yet you still lost all of your wars against India

The Soviet Union had provided the United Arab Republic with the latest military equipment. They had the manpower and the equipment. They didn't trod carefully, and Israel caught them slipping. West Pakistan and East Pakistan only had 36% of the military equipment allocated to them from the British Raj.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Yea but why do they still glorify the invaders who raped their Hindu/Buddhist ancestors unless its Stockholm syndrome and inferiority complex?!

Listen punk you were also invaded by Arabs, raped by Arabs and mixed/converted to Islam. I won't go into Ottoman invasions etc

 

[Progressive1]

You insult the Arabs yet you follow their religion like a dog instead of following your so called indo Iranian religions

As for Israel we all know that the entire west was with them at the same time the west was against India while you have the west and China in your side yet you still lost all of your wars against India

Also why your inferiority complex scums like pan Islamic donkey is so obsessed with the Turks even he claimed the Pakistanis and Afghans will fight with the Turks yet he barks all day about the Pakistanis who fight in Syria?!


Yea but why do they still glorify the invaders who raped their Hindu/Buddhist ancestors unless its Stockholm syndrome and inferiority complex?!

well most educated pakistanis see people of middle east as camelers who got oil lottery , middle east is home to islamic centres , islamic is cult like no other so obviously it will enjoy cult following among its followers to a degree

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

From what i think , Pakistan's national identity is still morphing so give it some more time. Over time, there will be more things to bind us together than just Religion. There will be things that would be "Pakistani" in nature, and in true sense unique to us.

Languages are the main problem dear..Urdu has strong contender like Dari/Persian and Arabic and its the regional languages plus conservatism that fuels it.