India’s Aircraft Carriers: A Giant Waste of Time?

[Beast]

PN has no chance of course against Indian CVBG in the Open Ocean.

My scenario is an Indian CVBG steaming towards the Pakistan coast on the far Western side - it is still 300-400km away from the Pakistani coast but this allows it's 60-70 strike fighters to launch and attack land targets in Pakistan using missiles and bombs.

This force would be so powerful that Pakistan would have to devote a major chunk of it's airforce and air-defences to deal with this.

In this scenario, India has used it's CVBG to force Pakistan to take a large chunk of it's forces away from the border with India.

How about PN AIP sub send to bottom of sea? Sending an Aircraft carrier against a foe so near you with enemy submarine base near it is simply a suicide move.

 

[hussain0216]

How about PN AIP sub send to bottom of sea? Sending an Aircraft carrier against a foe so near you with enemy submarine base near it is simply a suicide move.

Its why Pakistan went for the 8 Chinese AIP subs and had our current subs upgraded in Turkey

 

[UKBengali]

How about PN AIP sub send to bottom of sea? Sending an Aircraft carrier against a foe so near you with enemy submarine base near it is simply a suicide move.

The PN would have no idea where the Indian CVBG will sit or travel through to attack Pakistan.

Arabian sea is a massive area and the CVBG can sit 300-400Km away from the coast to allow it's strike fighters to attack.

The biggest advantage of a CVBG is that it is always on the move and no-one can really be exactly sure where it is or will be moving to next.

 

[Beast]

India will only be making the hull and maybe a few sensors for the Vishal. Potentially it may even be able to mount a radar and combat management system as well since it will not come into service till around 2030.

Engines will be US, EMALs will come from US and the fighters will be either French(Rafale) or US (F-35).

With all the hard parts done by other countries and the experience that India has accrued by building the 40,000 tonne Vikrant, India can do it by the time specified.

Sound easy but mind you, how long has Vikrant project took and yet to go for sea trial?

Your supplier only provide the sub system but the know how of integration needs to be done by Indian themselves. Its is not lego of just tug in and it will work. You have underestimate the complicity of such task.

Even US Gerald Ford class after commission has yet to enter service due to its faulty EMAL. What makes Indian has a better chance?

 

[UKBengali]

Sound easy but mind you, how long has Vikrant project took and yet to go for sea trial?

Your supplier only provide the sub system but the know how of integration needs to be done by Indian themselves. Its is not lego of just tug in and it will work. You have underestimate the complicity of such task.

Even US Gerald Ford class after commission has yet to enter service due to its faulty EMAL. What makes Indian has a better chance?

You may be right. If not 2030, then 2035 for sure.
Fact is that India has had a ton of experience with the Vikrant carrier.

 

[Crystal-Clear]

The PN would have no idea where the Indian CVBG will sit or travel through to attack Pakistan.

Arabian sea is a massive area and the CVBG can sit 300-400Km away from the coast to allow it's strike fighters to attack.

The biggest advantage of a CVBG is that it is always on the move and no-one can really be exactly sure where it is or will be moving to next.

ever heard about beidou?
& the kind of agreements we have qith them ?

 

[UKBengali]

ever heard about beidou?
& the kind of agreements we have qith them ?

Again, even with satellites it is not easy to find a CVBG in the middle of a huge ocean as you have no idea where to look in the first place.
If the CVBG was found, it does not have to travel at the same speed and direction and so it would be pretty much impossible to predict where it will end up say in X number of days and hours.

Pakistan is welcome to park it's 6-8 AIP subs far out in the Arabian seabed but the chances of the CBVG steaming over any one of them will be pretty remote.

 

[Beast]

The PN would have no idea where the Indian CVBG will sit or travel through to attack Pakistan.

Arabian sea is a massive area and the CVBG can sit 300-400Km away from the coast to allow it's strike fighters to attack.

The biggest advantage of a CVBG is that it is always on the move and no-one can really be exactly sure where it is or will be moving to next.

I am sorry, its no more 1980s where spy satellite with clear tracking and real time monitoring is not available. I am sure Chinese will back PN in times of war with India with such info.

http://english.cas.cn/newsroom/news/201801/t20180129_189651.shtml

China to Launch 60 Jilin-1 Video Satellites by 2020

US satellite snaps China's first aircraft carrier at sea
Photograph of 300-metre ship captured during trials in Yellow Sea, renewing concern over China's widening naval reach


Agencies

Thu 15 Dec 2011 12.39 GMTFirst published on Thu 15 Dec 2011 12.39 GMT

This article is over 7 years old
Shares
0

US satellite company DigitalGlobe has captured this image of the refitted former Soviet carrier as it underwent five days of trials in the Yellow Sea. Photograph: Reuters
A US satellite company says it has taken a photograph of China's first aircraft carrier during trials in the Yellow Sea.

It is believed to be the first time the 300-metre ship, a refitted former Soviet carrier, has been photographed at sea since it was launched in August.

DigitalGlobe said one of its satellites took the picture on 8 December and an analyst at the firm spotted the ship this week while searching through images.

Stephen Wood, director of DigitalGlobe's analysis centre, said he was confident the ship was the Chinese carrier because of the location and date of the image. The carrier has generated intense international interest because of what it might portend about China's intentions as a military power.

The former Soviet Union started building the carrier, which it called the Varyag, but never finished it. When the USSR collapsed, the ship ended up in Ukraine.

China bought the ship from Ukraine in 1998 and spent years refurbishing it. It had no engines, weapons or navigation systems when China acquired it. It has said the ship is intended for research and training, which has led to speculation that it plans to build copies.

China initially said little about its plans for the vessel but has been more open in recent years, said Bonnie S Glaser, a China expert at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies.

"It wasn't until the Chinese actually announced they were sending it out on a trial run they admitted, 'Yes, we are actually launching a carrier,'" she said. China announced two sea trials, which took place this year, she added.

Michael Schiffer, the US deputy assistant defence secretary for east Asia, said in August that the vessel could become operationally available by the end of next year, but without aircraft. "It will take a number of additional years for an air group to achieve the sort of minimal level of combat capability aboard the carrier that will be necessary for them to start to operate from the carrier," he said.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chin...oups-real-time-position-every-30-mins.479064/

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/oth-b.htm

China may have deployed as many as three Over-the-Horizon (OTH) sky-wave radar systems by 2005. China aspires to use to target aircraft carriers. These systems could be used in an early warning capacity. China also may have deployed at least one surface-wave OTHR.

Again, even with satellites it is not easy to find a CVBG in the middle of a huge ocean as you have no idea where to look in the first place.
If the CVBG was found, it does not have to travel at the same speed and direction and so it would be pretty much impossible to predict where it will end up say in X number of days and hours.

Pakistan is welcome to park it's 6-8 AIP subs far out in the Arabian seabed but the chances of the CBVG steaming over any one of them will be pretty remote.

Your statement of satellite not able to located aircraft carrier is based on 80s where Soviet not able to locate US CVBG...

We are now in year 2018.. Technology improves, nothing is stagnant.

You may be right. If not 2030, then 2035 for sure.
Fact is that India has had a ton of experience with the Vikrant carrier.

Let India start sea trial for Vikrant first before all the bragging comes later.

 

[UKBengali]

I am sorry, its no more 1980s where spy satellite with clear tracking and real time monitoring is not available. I am sure Chinese will back PN in times of war with India with such info.

http://english.cas.cn/newsroom/news/201801/t20180129_189651.shtml

China to Launch 60 Jilin-1 Video Satellites by 2020

US satellite snaps China's first aircraft carrier at sea
Photograph of 300-metre ship captured during trials in Yellow Sea, renewing concern over China's widening naval reach


Agencies

Thu 15 Dec 2011 12.39 GMTFirst published on Thu 15 Dec 2011 12.39 GMT

This article is over 7 years old
Shares
0

US satellite company DigitalGlobe has captured this image of the refitted former Soviet carrier as it underwent five days of trials in the Yellow Sea. Photograph: Reuters
A US satellite company says it has taken a photograph of China's first aircraft carrier during trials in the Yellow Sea.

It is believed to be the first time the 300-metre ship, a refitted former Soviet carrier, has been photographed at sea since it was launched in August.

DigitalGlobe said one of its satellites took the picture on 8 December and an analyst at the firm spotted the ship this week while searching through images.

Stephen Wood, director of DigitalGlobe's analysis centre, said he was confident the ship was the Chinese carrier because of the location and date of the image. The carrier has generated intense international interest because of what it might portend about China's intentions as a military power.

The former Soviet Union started building the carrier, which it called the Varyag, but never finished it. When the USSR collapsed, the ship ended up in Ukraine.

China bought the ship from Ukraine in 1998 and spent years refurbishing it. It had no engines, weapons or navigation systems when China acquired it. It has said the ship is intended for research and training, which has led to speculation that it plans to build copies.

China initially said little about its plans for the vessel but has been more open in recent years, said Bonnie S Glaser, a China expert at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies.

"It wasn't until the Chinese actually announced they were sending it out on a trial run they admitted, 'Yes, we are actually launching a carrier,'" she said. China announced two sea trials, which took place this year, she added.

Michael Schiffer, the US deputy assistant defence secretary for east Asia, said in August that the vessel could become operationally available by the end of next year, but without aircraft. "It will take a number of additional years for an air group to achieve the sort of minimal level of combat capability aboard the carrier that will be necessary for them to start to operate from the carrier," he said.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chin...oups-real-time-position-every-30-mins.479064/

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/oth-b.htm

China may have deployed as many as three Over-the-Horizon (OTH) sky-wave radar systems by 2005. China aspires to use to target aircraft carriers. These systems could be used in an early warning capacity. China also may have deployed at least one surface-wave OTHR.

Sure satellite tracking tech has improved since 1980s and the Chinese will provide surveillance data to the Pakistanis in times of war.

I think you are underestimating how hard it will be to pinpoint the Indian CVBG and then actually keep track of it's movements.

Remember that unlike a plane, a spy satellite is in an orbit and so may only see the CVBG for a fleeting moment as it passes overhead. Once this is done it may be another 90 minutes before it passes over the same spot again. By this time the CVBG would have moved 70-80km. Even with say a dozen spy satellites employed for keeping track of an Indian CBVG it will be difficult to provide information that will allow the PN AIP subs to ambush the CVBG from the bottom of the sea-bed. The CBVG never needs get closer than 300-400km from the Pakistani coastline and so the ocean may be more than 1km deep in those places and this is too deep for the PN AIP sub to sit on the seabed.

 

[Beast]

Sure satellite tracking tech has improved since 1980s and the Chinese will provide surveillance data to the Pakistanis in times of war.

I think you are underestimating how hard it will be to pinpoint the Indian CVBG and the actually keep track of it's movements.

Remember that unlike a plane, a spy satellite is in an orbit and so may only see the CVBG for a fleeting moment as it passes overhead. Once this is done it may be another 90 minutes before it passes over the same spot again. By this time the CVBG would have moved 70-80km. Even with say a dozen spy satellites employed for keeping track of an Indian CBVG it will be difficult to provide information that will allow the PN AIP subs to ambush the CVBG from the bottom of the sea-bed. The CBVG never needs get closer than 300-400km from the Pakistani coastline and so the ocean may be more than 1km deep in those places and this is too deep for the PN AIP sub to sit on the seabed.

I think you didn't even bother to read the link I post. They already think of such problem and there is a reason why it's called real time tracking.. let me repeat. It's not difficult to locate a big CVBG group on ocean anymore. We are not more in the 80s. Both US , NATO and China has means to locate each other CVBG group as long as satellite is intact.

There is a reason why when China successfully shot down a satellite in 2007 that send a chill and become a big issue to US.

 

[UKBengali]

I think you didn't even bother to read the link I post. They already think of such problem and there is a reason why it's called real time tracking.. let me repeat. It's not difficult to locate a big CVBG group on ocean anymore. We are not more in the 80s. Both US , NATO and China has means to locate each other CVBG group as long as satellite is intact.

There is a reason why when China successfully shot down a satellite in 2007 that send a chill and become a big issue to US.

OK. Say Pakistan even knows where the CBVG is, how can it hit it?

The CVBG need never move into waters less than 1km deep and is protected by a layered defence of aircraft, frigates, destroyers, submarines and helicopters.

 

[Beast]

OK. Say Pakistan even knows where the CBVG is, how can it hit it?

The CVBG need never move into waters less than 1km deep and is protected by a layered defence of aircraft, frigates, destroyers, submarines and helicopters.

Since China is able to track Indian CV leaving port , it can direct PN sub for ambush or direct attack as PN sub will not be to far away since both are neighbour. But satellite are not able to locate where sub is going....

AIP sub are not easy to locate. Even USN has trouble doing that. What makes IN has a better chance?

https://thediplomat.com/2016/08/chi...with-8-new-stealth-attack-submarines-by-2028/

 

[waz]

The Indian navy will always be far more powerful than the PN, but Pakistan is now beginning to build a good surface fleet and with it submarine arm will make it far harder for the IN to choke Pakistan's waterways. However if push comes to shove the Indian Navy might decide to take significant losses in order to arrive outside Karachi, Pakistan's largest metropolis, meaning India will have the upper hand.
Against China, forget about it. The PLAN vastly out numbers the IN in quantity and has a quality edge as well. They currently field more frigates than the IN has corvettes, frigates and destroyers put together....

 

[Hellfire]

Where is the source URL?

SOURCE: THE NATIONAL INTEREST
These smaller carriers probably have fewer operational fighters than they do on paper, given that the air wings likely have serviceability rates below 100 percent. Vikramaditya by itself could have significantly less than 24 MiGs capable of flying — and fighting.

Very astute observation of the writer who is unable to differentiate between his elbow and the rear! 45 KUBs for INS Vikramaditya right now!

@randomradio @Mustang06 You will enjoy this one

Most likely, India would attempt to enforce a blockade of Pakistan and use its carriers to strike land-based targets.

The writer absolutely has no clue

But Pakistan has several means to attack Indian carriers — with near-undetectable submarines and anti-ship missiles — which must also operate relatively far from India itself in the western and northern Arabian Sea. China does not have a similar disadvantage, as the PLAN would likely keep its carriers close and within the “first island chain” including Taiwan, closer to shore where supporting aircraft and ground-based missile launchers can help out.

Cool, if you say so

To directly threaten Pakistan, the small-deck carriers will have to maneuver nearer to shore — and thereby closer to “anti-access / area denial” weapons which could sink them.

And even with a third carrier, the threat of land-based Pakistani aircraft will force the Indian Navy to dedicate a large proportion of its own air wings to defense — perhaps half of its available fighters, according to 2017 paper by Ben Wan Beng Ho for the Naval War College Review.

PAF would be waiting for a CBG of IN to come, instead of defending/undertaking offensive strikes of it's own to try and maintain control of own airspace

Essentially, this makes Indian carriers’ self-defeating, with the flattops existing primarily to defend themselves from attack rather than taking the fight to their enemy. Carriers are also expensive symbols of national prestige, and it is unlikely the Indian Navy will want to risk losing one, two or all three. Under the circumstances, India’s investment in carriers makes more sense symbolically, and primarily as a way of keeping shipyards busy and shipyard workers employed.

Wow!

India will not fight China, Pakistan has nukes. Let's all disband our armed forces

Er, .... ooops! I forgot, employment has to be created

However, this is not to entirely rule out a carrier-centric naval strategy. Ho notes that Indian carriers could be useful when operating far out at sea and in the western Arabian Sea, effectively as escort ships for commercial shipping and to harass Pakistani trade. Nevertheless, this strategy comes with a similar set of problems.

“In any attempt to impose sea control in the northern Arabian Sea and to interdict Pakistani seaborne commerce by enforcing a blockade of major Pakistani maritime nodes, Indian carrier forces would have to devote a portion of their already meager airpower to attacking Pakistani vessels, thereby exacerbating the conundrum alluded to earlier,” Ho added. “What is more, Pakistani ships are likely to operate relatively close to their nation’s coast, to be protected by Islamabad’s considerable access-denial barrier.”

Access denial barrier?


@Joe Shearer @punit @Nilgiri @jbgt90 @nair @Viny @SrNair @Dash @Sam. @banvanaxl @Surya 1 @SpArK @MilSpec

Tagging you guys for a smile and a quite laugh

5 to 10 carriers please

4 would be ideal (and is aimed for), no doubt.

Remember that the carriers will be protected by escorts of submarines, frigates and destroyers.

Which, the author, has clearly failed to understand.

well said , and good choice of the nickname , justifies your level of comments and understanding . although you are an honest person !

Don't encourage trolling/baiting by responding. Ignore and move on.

 

[KAMDEV]

5 to 10 carriers please

noted please.