France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

[IceCold]

A middle finger to French would be the right thing to do and stick with the Chinese. Chinese aviation industry is catching up really fast and with their multiple 5th generation programs up and running, New technologies would be available for JF17. French can now shove their package where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[Viper0011.]

France aint that stupid. MMRCA is not the only defence deal between India and France. They wont jeopardize their relationship for a few bucks from Pakistan. .

I agree. The French ain't that stupid. Which is why they woke up, shortly after the Russians did. And realized they've already lost a few billion and that the US has also provided one of the best and most advanced systems to Pakistan, the -52 with AMRAAMS.

If French had seized the deal with Pakistan on JFT years ago, they would've made about 2-4 Billion from Pakistan till now. Plus, about 4-8 Billion in potential orders from the ME. As the JFT would've been very quickly adapted by ME countries, if the French avionics, engines and missiles were available.

But, that didn't happen and the JFT went behind delivery and foreign sales. But it turned out that the Chinese produced advanced radars and missiles so now these are becoming available.

During all this time, the reliability of India being a "customer" has been understood by everyone. At this point, no country will be exclusive to India only. You can bet your money on it. Everyone will sell what they want to, to Pakistan and to India both. Israel will be one exception but they've already told the Pakistanis that if Pakistan accepts Israel (which they should've long time ago), Israel would provide sophisticated weapons and technologies to Pakistan, just like Turkey. I think both Pakistan and Israel should form good ties together.

The future has started to unfold. The big countries are now also eying billions of mineral, oil, shale and gold / iron extraction contracts from Pakistan. The Chinese investment has told the world that the country called Pakistan is about to go up from an economic standpoint so there is a market providing good profit to the French, Russian, and American companies. So trust me, this isn't a billion dollar deal either.

If India is able to throw 10 Billion, the future of Pakistan is going to be able to pitch in 3-4 Billion. Strong enough to be classified as a "separate market" that requires independent treatment, outside of the Indian influence.

 

[datalibdaz]

What is good about Pakistani deals (deals that may range from construction projects to acquisition of military equipments) is that there are huge amount of juice(many won't get this term) in it for the people who runs these kind of projects...doesn't matter the deal is of $ 250 mil or $ 10 bill's, the profit margins are huge and project duration usually short (unlike India) and bonuses on early completion of the projects...The french now are getting that they have lost more than $3-4 Billions in the last decade without getting any fruitfull results from indian side...
Pakistan will benifit in both cases, if MMRCA succeeds or fails....If it fails we are getting good stuf from the french and if it succeeds we are in it for the Russians...

 

[ejaz007]

France aint that stupid. MMRCA is not the only defence deal between India and France. They wont jeopardize their relationship for a few bucks from Pakistan. Adn business between France and the wolds third largest economy is way more important than just defence deals. We are not in the 70's anymore where they will sell you a mirage a day after they sell us one.

But they are doing the same for decades.

France aint that stupid. MMRCA is not the only defence deal between India and France. They wont jeopardize their relationship for a few bucks from Pakistan. Adn business between France and the wolds third largest economy is way more important than just defence deals. We are not in the 70's anymore where they will sell you a mirage a day after they sell us one.

On the contrary I believe in this case they have been stupid. They have not secured the deal from India as yet and have lost the one they had in their hand.

 

[MilSpec]

Are you a Mil Spec security guard or a "PDF think tank" analyst??? You need to sound a bit more mature than your childish posts. Allow me to entertain you a little, before the delivery of the -16 block 52, the US had similar concerns about these -52's and Pakistan allowing access to the Chinese. So the US took serious measures. Similarly, the source of the Western tech, is the US, or at the least in providing certain components. So the US always dictates who the weapons are sold to. We have to watch out for our national interests. Nothing that's new or requires a "proof".

However, with the delivery of advanced AMRAAMS and the -16's, PLUS the ability of Pakistan to manufacture JFT block II (much more advanced than the Block I) and induction of CHI-RAAM (Chinese AMRAAM, the SD-10), the concerns have lessened. Now add the Indian drama of MRCA, you've pissed off the Russians and the French, and they will sell weapons to Pakistan. Whether you buy their weapons or not from them. So really, your MRCA saga has opened up many doors for the Pakistanis. They should send you guys a cake or something.

Why do you insist on getting kicked in the teeth every time with the same non-sense over and over again,

Irrespective of Rafale,
lets review the book order(Read: Confirmed) for Indo-france.

DCNS Scorpene : $3 Billion

DCNS - SeC Supply chain for P75 - $55 Million

Areva - Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited, for the Jaitapur Nuclear Power Project - 8 billion Euro ($10.4 billion)

HAL/Turbomeca Shakti - $700 million

Dassault- HAL Mirage 200H upgrade program - $2.2 billion

i.e. 16.8 Billion Dollars worth of book order.... as far as recall the entire defence budget for pakistan was 7 billion dollars..


France to stop selling heavy military equipment to Pakistan: Report – The Express Tribune

I agree. The French ain't that stupid. Which is why they woke up, shortly after the Russians did. And realized they've already lost a few billion and that the US has also provided one of the best and most advanced systems to Pakistan, the -52 with AMRAAMS.

If French had seized the deal with Pakistan on JFT years ago, they would've made about 2-4 Billion from Pakistan till now. Plus, about 4-8 Billion in potential orders from the ME. As the JFT would've been very quickly adapted by ME countries, if the French avionics, engines and missiles were available.

But, that didn't happen and the JFT went behind delivery and foreign sales. But it turned out that the Chinese produced advanced radars and missiles so now these are becoming available.

During all this time, the reliability of India being a "customer" has been understood by everyone. At this point, no country will be exclusive to India only. You can bet your money on it. Everyone will sell what they want to, to Pakistan and to India both. Israel will be one exception but they've already told the Pakistanis that if Pakistan accepts Israel (which they should've long time ago), Israel would provide sophisticated weapons and technologies to Pakistan, just like Turkey. I think both Pakistan and Israel should form good ties together.

The future has started to unfold. The big countries are now also eying billions of mineral, oil, shale and gold / iron extraction contracts from Pakistan. The Chinese investment has told the world that the country called Pakistan is about to go up from an economic standpoint so there is a market providing good profit to the French, Russian, and American companies. So trust me, this isn't a billion dollar deal either.

If India is able to throw 10 Billion, the future of Pakistan is going to be able to pitch in 3-4 Billion. Strong enough to be classified as a "separate market" that requires independent treatment, outside of the Indian influence.

Genius.... You do realise that the entire defence budget of pakistan is $7 Billion.....

And almost half of that 7 billion is for opex account, that leaves around 3.5 for capex, dividing between airforce, army and Navy ....Being overly optimistic there is no more than 1.5 mil for the entire PAF budget, . It will take 2 and half years of entie PAF budget for a order book worth 4 Billion Dollars (according to your expert opinion), lets see , would pakistan like to buy just avionics and missiles for it's airforce for the next 2.5 years with it's entire capital Expense budget without inducting a single a/c, SAM, transport, heli etc? If so then you are indeed a genius.....

now, If you have any problems with the calculation feel free to use a calculator to justify your proposed 2-4 billion for avionics and A2A missiles ... just avionics and missiles....

Unless you are planning to buy the stuff for PAF....

 

[pursuit of happiness]

I agree. The French ain't that stupid. Which is why they woke up, shortly after the Russians did. And realized they've already lost a few billion and that the US has also provided one of the best and most advanced systems to Pakistan, the -52 with AMRAAMS.

If French had seized the deal with Pakistan on JFT years ago, they would've made about 2-4 Billion from Pakistan till now. Plus, about 4-8 Billion in potential orders from the ME. As the JFT would've been very quickly adapted by ME countries, if the French avionics, engines and missiles were available.

But, that didn't happen and the JFT went behind delivery and foreign sales. But it turned out that the Chinese produced advanced radars and missiles so now these are becoming available.

During all this time, the reliability of India being a "customer" has been understood by everyone. At this point, no country will be exclusive to India only. You can bet your money on it. Everyone will sell what they want to, to Pakistan and to India both. Israel will be one exception but they've already told the Pakistanis that if Pakistan accepts Israel (which they should've long time ago), Israel would provide sophisticated weapons and technologies to Pakistan, just like Turkey. I think both Pakistan and Israel should form good ties together.

The future has started to unfold. The big countries are now also eying billions of mineral, oil, shale and gold / iron extraction contracts from Pakistan. The Chinese investment has told the world that the country called Pakistan is about to go up from an economic standpoint so there is a market providing good profit to the French, Russian, and American companies. So trust me, this isn't a billion dollar deal either.

If India is able to throw 10 Billion, the future of Pakistan is going to be able to pitch in 3-4 Billion. Strong enough to be classified as a "separate market" that requires independent treatment, outside of the Indian influence.

--
just go through ,
1.Indias defence allocation for capital expeduitre - new assets /MLUs vs pak cap exp
2. how pak would pay 3- 4 billion for PAF only?
3. where money come from ? may be arbas....
4. Totoal expsoure of frnace to india and pak.. and future prospects
5. need for money for france as EU is not good shape now

 

[Jf Thunder]

wont this shoot up the price tag?

 

[MastanKhan]

--
just go through ,
1.Indias defence allocation for capital expeduitre - new assets /MLUs vs pak cap exp
2. how pak would pay 3- 4 billion for PAF only?
3. where money come from ? may be arbas....
4. Totoal expsoure of frnace to india and pak.. and future prospects
5. need for money for france as EU is not good shape now

Hi,

The 2 - 4 billion was from the first inception of JF 17----from 2007 till now---which could have been around 200 JF 17's by now---plus any foreign orders.

That is 8 years expense and not one year's---. You and your TT buddy are just posting senseless comments.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Hi,

The 2 - 4 billion was from the first inception of JF 17----from 2007 till now---which could have been around 200 JF 17's by now---plus any foreign orders.

That is 8 years expense and not one year's---. You and your TT buddy are just posting senseless comments.

--
Dear ,
we have just putting facts ...
ca you ans my question above one by one.. if you have facts atleast i will go back on my commets
--
UBIFRANCE - India
Bilateral relations
India, France bilateral trade can take quantum leap: Exim Bank | Business Standard News

 

[fatman17]

Need more concrete evidence. Don't trust the word Sources. Additionally it could be a french ploy to push india on the rafale deal.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Need more concrete evidence. Don't trust the word Sources. Additionally it could be a french ploy to push india on the rafale deal.

--
if true how much beusiness france can generate from this deal ? any other benfit from pak in other sectores as pak is opning door for more investment ?

 

[GURU DUTT]

latest rumor

india has agreed to rafale deal french wanted at least 3squads (3X18=54) fully french built french rafales while rest made in india under TOT

now new govt has rumoured to have agreed fortwo squads of fully french built rafales and rest 108 in india with a combined HAL and private industry effort

its just a roumor net result might be diffrent but rafale is a done deal

 

[My-Analogous]

Highly placed industrial sources have indicated to me that the deal for advanced Avionics, Radar, EW suite, HMD/S and MICA Missiles for PAF's JF-17 Thunder jets is back on the table. The deal was postponed after India removed Rafale from its MMRCA. Now that the Rafale deal with India is stalling, the French are willing to sell the whole package PAF wants for its Thunder fleet.

@Windjammer

It seems that now our doors are now getting open one by one. First Russia and now France. Good for Pakistan and concerns for US

Horus, do you think it will be a wise move to go ahead with this proposal? What if they are using it as a pressure tactic?

These options are good and other country know that they have more options so its effect price and sweetness of the deal

 

[MilSpec]

Hi,

The 2 - 4 billion was from the first inception of JF 17----from 2007 till now---which could have been around 200 JF 17's by now---plus any foreign orders.

That is 8 years expense and not one year's---. You and your TT buddy are just posting senseless comments.

Dear Sir,
following is the history of Pakistan's Military Budget, keeping Capex and Opex in perspective, could you please show me a potential of 4 billion dollars of potential allocation of avionics and A2A missiles for One single platform in the last 8 years... Sensible answer to my apparently senseless comments will be much appreciated....

+ 2013-14 - $6.3 Billion
+ 2014-15 - $6.3 Billion




Especially when the 50-60 Jf17's itself do not cost more than a billion dollar....slapping on avionics worth 4 times the cost of the aircrafts doesn't seem much sensible to me, but then again you are more informed....

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Pakistanis are going gaga over the fact that they just being used to pressurize India to buy French and Russian weapons. But are Frenchies and Russkies are stupid enough to jeopardize their future deals also by engaging pakistan? we still have the English and American options.

Well from the beginning of the thread I don't see any of Pakistani feeling amused but I did saw almost every indian member go nuts over this unconfirmed news and some how trying to show off their purchasing capability and other stuff like banning France etc. In fact it seems Indian go ga ga by this unconfirmed news more then any sane Pakistani member here as we know even if it's just a news in making its actually for Indians not for us because either case our machine is in the air already and working for us as well as seems to be securing foreign orders soon In Sha ALLAH.
So all the mighty indian friends who are trying to say they may teach a lesson to French please learn that world does no revolve around India. Although India is a big country and have billion $ opportunity for sellers but the attitude you people showing here at the forum shows your collective mentality. You can not compare France to Russia when it is about TOT and USA with France or other nations it altogether a different ballgame and considering other things as well so please stop chest thumping and behave mannerly.
I don't see any Pakistani jumping up and down conclusively. We are just discussing possibility and availability of what we don't have earlier. Nothing much.