Chinese delegation sent to Russia to discuss stealth fighter engine

[j20blackdragon]

A J-20 powered by WS-10-series engine would still beat anything bar the F-22 easily.

I agree.

In addition, I think the F-35 could easily hold its own against an underpowered J-20 as well.

In other words, anything that is stealthy enough to get to the merge against the J-20 will do fine.

All other aircraft will have a lot of trouble at BVR when PL-12s are raining down and you can't even see the J-20.

 

[UKBengali]

I agree.

In addition, I think the F-35 could easily hold its own against an underpowered J-20 as well.

In other words, anything that is stealthy enough to get to the merge against the J-20 will do fine.

All other aircraft will have a lot of trouble at BVR when PL-12s are raining down and you can't even see the J-20.

I am not sure about this.

The J-20 will be significantly stealthier than a F-35 and will be able to rain multiple BVR missiles at the F-35 before it even knows the J-20 is there.

 

[ptldM3]

A J-20 powered by WS-10-series engine would still beat anything bar the F-22 easily.

Stop making ridiculous claims. No weight figures of the J-20 are available but based on size and most importantly fuselage height and width the J-20 will be an extremely heavy aircraft especially when fully fueled and armed. The WS-10 is far too underpowered for the J-20.

As for the J-20 easily beating everything, that's a bold claim (which you are known for making). If you compare the J-20s rivals, F35 and pak-fa there are some enormous challenges. Let's assume that the J-20 has the smaller RCS, the problem is the two mentioned aircraft F-35 and pak-fa will themselves be difficult to detect; especially since aspect angles of both aircraft play a major role since air warfare is dynamic.

For instance, every aircraft has it's optimal RCS angles; likewise, every aircraft has its less then optimal angles such as the rear. This means an F-35 or pak-fa can come in from the J-20s rear without the J-20 knowing it because remember the J-20 does not have a rear facing radar, yet the pak-fa does, it also has two side radars, this means it has full 360 degree situational awareness.

Optical sensors also play a role, we know that both the F-35 and pak-fa have sensors that can detect IR signatures from 100s of km away.

Counter measures also play a role as does maneuvering and kinetic. Whenever a missile Is launched a radar warning receiver will usually alert the aircraft, that aircraft will take evasive actions, acceleration, speed, and maneuvering can often cause a missile to miss or simply lose it's kinetic energy or simply put, burn out before it reaches it's target.

I can go on and on and even go into further detail but my point is clear. hopefully you can understand that it's not a video game and involves many variables.

 

[ptldM3]

I am not sure about this.

The J-20 will be significantly stealthier than a F-35 and will be able to rain multiple BVR missiles at the F-35 before it even knows the J-20 is there.

Where is the proof for this? Assuming both aircraft are heads on what makes you think that the J-20 has a smaller RCS or that the J-20s radar will detect the F-35 before the F-35 detects the J-20.

 

[UKBengali]

This means an F-35 or pak-fa can come in from the J-20s rear without the J-20 knowing it because remember the J-20 does not have a rear facing radar, yet the pak-fa does, it also has two side radars, this means it has full 360 degree situational awareness.

How on earth is a PAK-FA going to come in from the rear as they will be facing each other to start off with?

J-20s massive radar will sweep high-low and side-to-side and detect the PAK-FA before it gets anywhere near it

Optical sensors also play a role, we know that both the F-35 and pak-fa have sensors that can detect IR signatures from 100s of km away.

Optical sensors are nowhere near as effective at range like radar is.

Counter measures also play a role as does maneuvering and kinetic. Whenever a missile Is launched a radar warning receiver will usually alert the aircraft, that aircraft will take evasive actions, acceleration, speed, and maneuvering can often cause a missile to miss or simply lose it's kinetic energy or simply put, burn out before it reaches it's target.

Heard of ripple-fire or firing missiles in sequence?

Where is the proof for this? Assuming both aircraft are heads on what makes you think that the J-20 has a smaller RCS or that the J-20s radar will detect the F-35 before the F-35 detects the J-20.

J-20 will have a much bigger radar than the F-35 will. It is a simple matter of size of nose-cone of the two fighters.

After the Chinese SAM win in Turkey, China's radar technology cannot be easily dismissed as inferior anymore.

 

[ptldM3]

How on earth is a PAK-FA going to come in from the rear as they will be facing each other to start off with?

This is the pintical of being hopelessly ignorant. Why would they be facing each other? Air combat is dynamic and not linear. Study aircraft engagements, often times one aircraft will surprise the other. There is no rules that state one aircraft can't engage another from the rear.

J-20s massive radar will sweep high-low and side-to-side and detect the PAK-FA before it gets anywhere near it

This is based on what? Even your hero Dr. Kopp did physical optics simulations on both the J-20 and pak-fa and both aircraft showed similar figures. From those test it can be concluded that in those tests the J-20 had slightly better RCS figures but not in all frequencies or angles and in fact the pak-fa had much better RCS figures in the 150 MHz frequency from all aspect angles.

You also simply do not understand or are simply too stubborn, the J-20s radar sweep is limited, since it only has one radar while the pak-fa has at least 4. One in front two on the sides and one in the rear, obviously the J-20 will have blind spots. The pak-fa will not.

Optical sensors are nowhere near as effective at range like radar is.

An optical sensor will likely detect IR signature far before a radar will detect an aircraft assuming we are talking low observable aircraft. But here is something that might shock you--an aircraft needs not only to detect another aircraft but lock onto target and even then it means nothing if the missiles are out of range.

Heard of ripple fire or firing missiles in sequence?

Kinetics are still a problem this assuming that the missile actually stays locked on target. Once an aircraft banks or changes orientation the missile can lose target acquisition.

Just learn to accept that China is now up there with the big-boys in the world of fighter aircraft 

No one said China is not with the "big boys".

J-20 will have a much bigger radar than the F-35 will. It is a simple matter of size of nose-cone of the two fighters.

it's not simply a matter of size.

 

[帅的一匹]

Since PLAAF wanna form the biggest 4th and 4.5 fleet in the world, we need the production scale of Russian factories to speed it up.

 

[gambit]

I am not sure about this.

The J-20 will be significantly stealthier than a F-35 and will be able to rain multiple BVR missiles at the F-35 before it even knows the J-20 is there.

Based on what data? Kopp's?

 

[帅的一匹]

As now India is pivot toward western weapon, Russia is more reliable on China deal to compensate their loose in India. Russia is always a trusted alliance when President Putin is in the position. As a man, you shall look up to Putin. 

Based on what data? Kopp's?

Gossip here is not neccessarry anymore, Does F22 shoot down any fighter in real senario since its induction. It's power is only assumed on paper. Am i right? Good luck those pilots was not get poisonous by its tail gas due to design flaw in oxygen system. USA is always paper tiger who calims zero casaulty which means you scare death.

 

[帅的一匹]

Stop making ridiculous claims. No weight figures of the J-20 are available but based on size and most importantly fuselage height and width the J-20 will be an extremely heavy aircraft especially when fully fueled and armed. The WS-10 is far too underpowered for the J-20.

As for the J-20 easily beating everything, that's a bold claim (which you are known for making). If you compare the J-20s rivals, F35 and pak-fa there are some enormous challenges. Let's assume that the J-20 has the smaller RCS, the problem is the two mentioned aircraft F-35 and pak-fa will themselves be difficult to detect; especially since aspect angles of both aircraft play a major role since air warfare is dynamic.

For instance, every aircraft has it's optimal RCS angles; likewise, every aircraft has its less then optimal angles such as the rear. This means an F-35 or pak-fa can come in from the J-20s rear without the J-20 knowing it because remember the J-20 does not have a rear facing radar, yet the pak-fa does, it also has two side radars, this means it has full 360 degree situational awareness.

Optical sensors also play a role, we know that both the F-35 and pak-fa have sensors that can detect IR signatures from 100s of km away.

Counter measures also play a role as does maneuvering and kinetic. Whenever a missile Is launched a radar warning receiver will usually alert the aircraft, that aircraft will take evasive actions, acceleration, speed, and maneuvering can often cause a missile to miss or simply lose it's kinetic energy or simply put, burn out before it reaches it's target.

I can go on and on and even go into further detail but my point is clear. hopefully you can understand that it's not a video game and involves many variables.

To be honest, although two countries are friends, Chinese are not buying PAKFA cause it looks cheap. 
Not to offend, just tell the real feeling. F35 looks more advanced.

 

[cirr]

You guys are still clueless about the purposes of this visit and I am not gonna tell you for free。

You need to bear in mind that China bought in 1990s and early 2000s Russian Su-27s（some assembled in China and called J-11A）and Su-30s in the hundreds。All these twin-engine aircrafts now need replacement engines。Even if China ramps up her WS10 production capacity to the full，the demand（J-11B、J-11BS、J-16，and J-15、J-11D。J-10B etc shortly）still far exceeds short-term supply。Another reason is the cost：700 million USD for 140 engines works out a low 5 million USD per engine。That's dirt cheap。

So why not buying from Russia？

Only fools would think otherwise。

 

[帅的一匹]

In terms of the economy condition Russia face nowadays, PAKFA is the best you could have achieved. No matter what counts, PAKFA will be top 5 fighters in the world.

 

[longlong]

Don't underestimate Chinese and their engines.

New leaks from Snowden showed a F135 type engine is testing on the road:

Stealthy

Powerful

 

[cirr]

Chinese made jets use Chinese engines。

Russian made jets use Russian engines。

That's PLAAF policy。Sound simple？It is simple。Pity some of you are also simple minded。

 

[帅的一匹]

You guys are still clueless about the purposes of this visit and I am not gonna tell you for free。

You need to bear in mind that China bought in 1990s and early 2000s Russian Su-27s（some assembled in China and called J-11A）and Su-30s in the hundreds。All these twin-engine aircrafts now need replacement engines。Even if China ramps up her WS10 production capacity to the full，the demand（J-11B、J-11BS、J-16，and J-15、J-11D。J-10B etc shortly）still far exceeds short-term supply。Another reason is the cost：700 million USD for 140 engines works out a low 5 million USD per engine。That's dirt cheap。

So why not buying from Russia？

Only fools would think otherwise。

Russian Engine is not expensive and we shall give them some order to ensure those engine enterprise in Russia won't go bankrupt. This is a strategic thinking to protect Russia's ability to fight back USA. Since China and Russia are alliance, weapon deal is quite normal. I think Russia will buy from China in certain area like DDG technology If China is willing to sell. We two coud draw on each other's strength to hold USA back for bully. 
The most headache problem for PLAAF is the inadequate production scale of WS10 series engine. Russia sure helps out in someway. Good business that two sides meet their own needs. 
For me, never underestimate others and never overestimate yourself. Being humble is the right way to making progress. Our enemy is USA and Japan, please don't bring Russia in this one. I know some Russian experts always try to denigrate Chinese weapon system without any solid proof, but the world has begun to accept Chinese weapon more and more. It's just a matter of time to prove ourself. Waking your own way, let others gossip. 
Those Clown always try to delibertely misrepresent will be deemed as joke in the end.