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Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

Should Pakistan upgrade its Mirages to South African Cheetah standard if not Beyond?

  • Yes

    Votes: 181 59.0%
  • No

    Votes: 126 41.0%

  • Total voters
    307
Hi,

There is no defence without offence---.

People who can only defend---have DIED a horrible death.
Pakistan this time in only Defense not in offence position ..its hard to believe but its true. be realistic. and please look at in Pakistan Inside ..Pakistan now in very difficult circumstances. Law in order ... judiciary System is targeted now FBR ..and State Bank. every Government Department is hopelot of problem internal in Pakistan and enemy enjoyed this situations.. now people only in Defend not offence.
 
Wikipedia page on Mirage ROSE got an update since I last checked. All mentioned companies providing components replacing SAGEM and SELEX are local. Looking at Pakistan's defence establishment's emphasis on keeping capabilities under wraps as long as possible, since hardware for the ROSE upgrades are locally sourced I suspect alot more airframes have gotten the upgrade and the extent of upgraded features could be more than whats being acknowledged.

Interesting insights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

It is currently expected for all of ROSE upgraded Mirage fighters jets to be remain in the combat service with PAF beyond 2020 in specialized Tactical Attack roles. The are expected to be replaced by JF–17 Thunder (block IV or V; if JF-17 program continues) or additional F-16s or next generation aircraft coming out Project Azm; but there are no publicly confirmed timelines or details about any of these programs.[1][5]

The French SAGEM and Italian SELEX were contracted to provide crucial consultations on military electronics and avionics in 1996.[6] Special overhauling facilities and the designing divisions were established the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra.[6] Over 90% aircraft were locally retrofitted at the Aeronautical Complex; and very few aircraft were upgraded in France.

In 1998, the SAGEM and Italian SELEX left the program as the Margalla Electronics, DESTO, and GIDS, and NIE joined the program.[3]

The PAF's project team was formed to manage the program and held review meetings frequently in both Pakistan and France where problems were discussed.[6] The Aeronautical Complex and its technical personnel were involved with parts manufacture and quality control. PAF test pilots validated performance of the new equipment during test-flights.[6] In 2003, the PAF bought a total of about 50 grounded Mirage III and Mirage 5 fighter jets from Libya along with 150 engines still in sealed packaging and a huge quantity of spare parts.[8] Most of these aircraft were to be broken up for spare parts required by the Mirage fleet already in PAF service.[8] With this purchase, the PAF was to become the largest operator of Dassault Mirage III/Mirage 5 fighters in the world.[9]

 
ok Sir, First of all .I am not against the Mirages they are best of their time No Question about that. and yes we dont have a bomber for long range Strike . and but did we have in past ? no. today we dont have strike in Jerusalem .. today we just have to defend only...........the situation is much different then 1990, even 2010. today we just have to defend Pakistan Aerospace. Long Range Air craft today Like Su-34 as you mentioned its call a good replacement as today world .. any why.
as you say look around Pakistan U.S A policy change to Pakistan they Give India every thing and ignore Pakistan like forget about .. its very difficult time for Pakistan Air force. only Choice to Build Jf-17s as soon as possible. that why I said no need to fly Mirages in this conditions. tell me if PAF loose a Fighter Squadron for a little time what we loss??? Sir PAF have already no Way to Go .. Only F-16s and Jf 17s are the Front and Back bone to fight every situation its .hard to believe but its true... BVR system is a Sharp killer to F-7ps mirages you know that...

That are my points to say Please stop patrolling Mirages ..its create problems to PAF
Hi thank you for your reply and my friend no need to call me a sir I’m just a CBM like you to gain as much knowledge as I can coming in this thread
Again my couple of points
1 as per your reply do we need to bomb Jerusalem 1990 we never did and will not
2 only bombing for us from 1947 till now is next door
3 as I mentioned earlier you don’t have a capability to launch Raad beside from mirages
4 as per your saying we don’t need to pitch mirages at the very first instance alas after jf17 & f16
You can use them quiet well
5 loosing a fighter squad well I hope you will agree until you have a replacement you shouldn’t be
In case of specially Pakistan as you already wrote look around
6 now comes to changing of policy from USA towards Pakistan how long you want to be feed by USA isn’t it better to find other ways around to fulfill your requirements
7 if you have the money and economy like India you talking about USA I bet you nobody dare
To offend you not to sell whatever you looking for
8 so at the moment we are restricted due to our economic position so whatever we have or whatever you can get is better two in the bush ☹️
Thank you for your patience to read my post
 
Hi thank you for your reply and my friend no need to call me a sir I’m just a CBM like you to gain as much knowledge as I can coming in this thread
Again my couple of points
1 as per your reply do we need to bomb Jerusalem 1990 we never did and will not
2 only bombing for us from 1947 till now is next door
3 as I mentioned earlier you don’t have a capability to launch Raad beside from mirages
4 as per your saying we don’t need to pitch mirages at the very first instance alas after jf17 & f16
You can use them quiet well
5 loosing a fighter squad well I hope you will agree until you have a replacement you shouldn’t be
In case of specially Pakistan as you already wrote look around
6 now comes to changing of policy from USA towards Pakistan how long you want to be feed by USA isn’t it better to find other ways around to fulfill your requirements
7 if you have the money and economy like India you talking about USA I bet you nobody dare
To offend you not to sell whatever you looking for
8 so at the moment we are restricted due to our economic position so whatever we have or whatever you can get is better two in the bush ☹️
Thank you for your patience to read my post
I used the Jerusalem just because of history PAF pilots fight against Israel 1973 and shot down Israeli Mirages... from their Mig-21 and Hunters. and Russian are very upset India and U.S.A close relation and for the losing Indian huge weapons Market, this is the time for Pakistan to shake hands with Russian and open the Motorway to Russian states. etc. I say Mirages are the best for flying no question about that I am not hate this machine but its time is over now. lot of problems PAF are facing them now ..that why I say this. and other you points Sir I am agree with you
 
Is mirage number 441 to 452 are all mirage 5 pa3 fighters equipped with ASM ?

By looking at the picture how do u dustingush between pa2 and pa3?
 
Is mirage number 441 to 452 are all mirage 5 pa3 fighters equipped with ASM ?

By looking at the picture how do u dustingush between pa2 and pa3?

Nose of Ac varies and you can distinguish 8 sqn mirages with Exocet capability by nose [emoji103] as it carries a specific radar type agave with smaller black Radom compared to mirage 3 and mirage 5s other than pa3 does not have radar perhaps a ranging radar ??


View attachment 460799

View attachment 460800

View attachment 460801

View attachment 460802
 
Is mirage number 441 to 452 are all mirage 5 pa3 fighters equipped with ASM ?

By looking at the picture how do u dustingush between pa2 and pa3?

There is no way to distinguish PA2s from PA3s externally, unless they are seen carrying Exocet. And I don't think the PA3 were in a neat sequence either. And there were only 10 delivered with AShM capability and not 13 as your total might add up to.
The ones that are positively 5PA3s are 79437, 79447, 79451, and 79458. I have a suspect list of the other 6 but its just guess work lol

Nose of Ac varies and you can distinguish 8 sqn mirages with Exocet capability by nose [emoji103] as it carries a specific radar type agave with smaller black Radom compared to mirage 3 and mirage 5s other than pa3 does not have radar perhaps a ranging radar ??

None of these attachments are working. As for the noses, there are differences between certain ones, both none so between Mirage 5PA2/3s, but of which carry radars, either the Cyrano IV (in the 21 PA2s) or the Agave (in the 10 PA3s).
 
There is no way to distinguish PA2s from PA3s externally, unless they are seen carrying Exocet. And I don't think the PA3 were in a neat sequence either. And there were only 10 delivered with AShM capability and not 13 as your total might add up to.
The ones that are positively 5PA3s are 79437, 79447, 79451, and 79458. I have a suspect list of the other 6 but its just guess work lol



None of these attachments are working. As for the noses, there are differences between certain ones, both none so between Mirage 5PA2/3s, but of which carry radars, either the Cyrano IV (in the 21 PA2s) or the Agave (in the 10 PA3s).

I don’t know which sqn has pa2 but 7 sqn and 22 sqn mirages differs from 8 sqn and you can distinguish based on nose, even 25, 27 as well as 15 sqn Mirage nose differs

Which sqn flies pa2 same 8 Sqn ??

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/pakistanmiragema_1.htm
 
I don’t know which sqn has pa2 but 7 sqn and 22 sqn mirages differs from 8 sqn and you can distinguish based on nose, even 25, 27 as well as 15 sqn Mirage nose differs

Which sqn flies pa2 same 8 Sqn ??

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/pakistanmiragema_1.htm

For your benefit, here is a quick reference guide I just made to differentiate between the various versions of Mirages in PAF. I didnt' include the various dual-seaters in here.

Just to add, as I didn't include the tails of these, but there are two types of vertical stabilizers as well. Ex-French and Lebanese Mirages have a notched tails while the rest of the Mirages don't.

Enjoy.
upload_2018-3-22_12-0-1.png
 
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geing fighter jets still flying high in Pakistan
1698197-edcfaafcbfaeefadaffc-1524979240.jpg

Fifty years after it was added to the fleet, repair, refurbish continues
By AFP
Apr.29,2018
ISLAMABAD:
The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverbates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest ageing fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF).

Fifty years after the country bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.

That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France’s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.

Pakistan turns to China for high-end weapons: report

2d872b83e439651b5212bda0c99b35d0eb88bdbe-1524978658.jpg

In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians inspect a Mirage aircraft after the installation of air-to-air refuelling probe as it undergoes an overhaul by the PAF at the MRF in Kamra, Islamabad. PHOTO: AFP

The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of – but far more high-tech and lethal than – the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.

“We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the ageing Mirages,” says Air Commodore Salman M Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.

The Mirages, bought in the late 1960s to diversify the fleet, largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres. The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.

8be8076dcc3a0ac00c8c91499aef2eab0c0e24ed-1524978742.jpg

In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on the engine of a Mirage aircraft. PHOTO: AFP

They performed bombing missions during Pakistan’s war with India in 1971 – one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.

But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war. Usually the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years.

218042901983-1524979307.jpg

In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft. PHOTO: AFP

But overhauling them abroad was expensive for a developing country.

So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you’ve got to do it yourself.

Makeover

The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved ‘billions’ of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars – though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.

The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.

US budget proposes $336m in civilian assistance, military aid to Pakistan

At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited. E

ngineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a “non-destructive inspection”, essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and air-frame.

Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.

afp-1524978844.jpg

In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, a Mirage aircraft prepares for a first test run at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex after an overhaul at the MRF in Kamra. PHOTO: AFP

Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.

The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refuelling, Farooqi said.

The “identification of friend and foe” (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.

Pakistan successfully test-fires ‘beyond visual range’ missile from JF-17 Thunder

Grand dames

But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain. “They have outlived their lives… after their overhauls [they] have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.

49da3dc271be25e089be733a2858507d4bf45567-1524978919.jpg

In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul. PHOTO: AFP

The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbour and arch-rival India – which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades – is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.

The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said. Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.

218042901987-1524979013.jpg

In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the PAF. PHOTO: AFP

Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages’ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.

It is a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission to drop bombs on the enemy’s position – quite easy,” he said.

“It is an old aircraft,” said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. “But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise
 
Pakistan this time in only Defense not in offence position ..its hard to believe but its true. be realistic. and please look at in Pakistan Inside ..Pakistan now in very difficult circumstances. Law in order ... judiciary System is targeted now FBR ..and State Bank. every Government Department is hopelot of problem internal in Pakistan and enemy enjoyed this situations.. now people only in Defend not offence.
Your enemy is seven times bigger than you, their forces are 5 times bigger than you. Their resources are more and they are the darlings of the Powers that be. You on the other hand are corrupt inept and disorganized. Your resources are limited as there is only a limited amount of raw material that you possess. Barring China you have no support and the Chinese support for you is based on mutual interests. You can assume a aggressive posture but cant maintain it. This is a reality. So unless you want the region to turn into scorched earth and the world population to be culled into half or less, you have no other option but to be defencive. This is the reality so better accept it and live with it.
Within your confines and limitations you have done well. You have avoided major wars in 2002 and 2008 and made the Indian strategists look like fools. They have made big claims but not been able to carry them through as like you they dont want to end up as toast.
The war that is being waged against you is an economic war with many facets. The whole idea is to choke your economic growth and the best way is to foment violence inside. This is the reason that you have Indian forrays with Afghanistan and Iran. If you can bear and thwart this long enough for the CEPC To come into being and start functioning and can keep flow on that line smooth and uninterrupted you will be fine. Other things that need to be done are beyond us so let us not talk bout it.
A

Wikipedia page on Mirage ROSE got an update since I last checked. All mentioned companies providing components replacing SAGEM and SELEX are local. Looking at Pakistan's defence establishment's emphasis on keeping capabilities under wraps as long as possible, since hardware for the ROSE upgrades are locally sourced I suspect alot more airframes have gotten the upgrade and the extent of upgraded features could be more than whats being acknowledged.

Interesting insights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

It is currently expected for all of ROSE upgraded Mirage fighters jets to be remain in the combat service with PAF beyond 2020 in specialized Tactical Attack roles. The are expected to be replaced by JF–17 Thunder (block IV or V; if JF-17 program continues) or additional F-16s or next generation aircraft coming out Project Azm; but there are no publicly confirmed timelines or details about any of these programs.[1][5]

The French SAGEM and Italian SELEX were contracted to provide crucial consultations on military electronics and avionics in 1996.[6] Special overhauling facilities and the designing divisions were established the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra.[6] Over 90% aircraft were locally retrofitted at the Aeronautical Complex; and very few aircraft were upgraded in France.

In 1998, the SAGEM and Italian SELEX left the program as the Margalla Electronics, DESTO, and GIDS, and NIE joined the program.[3]

The PAF's project team was formed to manage the program and held review meetings frequently in both Pakistan and France where problems were discussed.[6] The Aeronautical Complex and its technical personnel were involved with parts manufacture and quality control. PAF test pilots validated performance of the new equipment during test-flights.[6] In 2003, the PAF bought a total of about 50 grounded Mirage III and Mirage 5 fighter jets from Libya along with 150 engines still in sealed packaging and a huge quantity of spare parts.[8] Most of these aircraft were to be broken up for spare parts required by the Mirage fleet already in PAF service.[8] With this purchase, the PAF was to become the largest operator of Dassault Mirage III/Mirage 5 fighters in the world.[9]

Thank you for a very thought provoking post. I think it is safe to say that PAF has proven to be mastsrs of turning inadequacy into competency. Ic Israelis can still fly the same Air frame why can we not do so ourselves. I am intrigued to learn that local advancements are going into the planes. So effectively things have moved on from beyond ROSE 1,2 and 3. The question really is how upgradable are these planes. However if the pragmatic solution is to upgraxe them as cheap yet effective solutions for specialized roles then it is not a bad decision. The frames have the necessary life and the original platform being long obsolete the OEMs ars not too bothered with what you do with them.
A
 
50 years old Mirages: PAF stunned world with its professionalism and serviceability
29 Apr, 2018


50-years-old-mirages-paf-stunned-world-with-its-professionalism-and-serviceability-1524991625-2735.jpg


SHARES

*KAMRA: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverbates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest ageing fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.*

Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.

READ MORE: PAF JF 16 fighter jet
That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France´s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.

The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of -- but far more high-tech and lethal than -- the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.

READ MORE: Pakistani film "Sherdil" on life of a PAF pilot to hit cinemas
"We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the ageing Mirages," says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.

Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.

READ MORE: In a first, Chinese Air Chief was the Chief Guest at the PAF Academy passing out parade
The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.

They performed bombing missions during Pakistan´s war with India in 1971 -- one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.

But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.

Usually the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted towards its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.

So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you´ve got to do it yourself.

* Makeover*

The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved "billions" of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars -- though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.

The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.

At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.

Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a "non-destructive inspection", essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.

Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.

Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.

The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refuelling, Farooqi said.

The "identification of friend and foe" (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.

* Grand dames *

But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.

"They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents," Lateef said.

The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbour and arch-rival India -- which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades -- is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.

The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.

Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.

Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages´ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.

It is a "very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy´s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -- to drop bombs on the enemy´s position -- quite easy," he said.

"It is an old aircraft," said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. "But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise." - APP/AFP
 
JF17 Thunder program is meant to improve Airforce and is on Track specially with investment in Azm project
No urgency on Airforce , we need to fix our Navy 8-)

Pick up 18-36 Mirage 2000 on side :pakistan:
 

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