Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Finally, someone who voiced this opinion otherwise this forum is full of posts which make one think like developing a 5th gen aircraft is peice of cake while in the same breath ppl mention how we lack skills and finances to evolve jf17 further than block 3. In layman's terms its like jumping off to PHD when you haven't even finished your bachelors yet.

I beleive instead of venturing into 5th gen we should simply buy few squadrons of FC31 off the shelf from China (if and when available). When countries like US, China and Russia are not fully relying on 5th gen and the true backbone of their fleet is going to be 4.5 gen then how come Pakistan go with a full focus on 5th (not to mention the associated price tag).

It would make sense for Pakistan to have thunders together with some decent medium weight 4.5gen aircraft (or thunders evolved further into a medium weight category in parallel with the likes of f16Vs/j10C, strike varients, indigenously developed mission pods, avoinics etc) to compliment the limited fleet of 5th gen forming the spear head.

tbh, I think the PAF should fully jump into the FC-31. Basically, go for 120+ aircraft to ensure we have as modern and capable a fleet as possible (alongside JF-17B/Block-III and F-16 Block-52+). In turn, we skip interim 4.5-gen fighters (outside of the JF-17). Other than that, we start a demonstrator project and use it to develop UCAVs and, eventually, a manned next-gen fighter (2030s/2040s).

 

[Armchair]

I think the Mirage's advantage over the JF-17 may be:

1. It's pure delta wing that gives excellent low level strike performance
2. Same wings allow an efficient way to carry very heavy loads over a long distance
3. Extreme low cost of maintaining this fleet that requires minimal expenditure

The question of Mirage replacement is not that JF-17 can have similar performance as the Mirage. The real question is - how effective a platform is in overcoming the Indian IADS during a strike mission. I think the Mirage and the JF-17 will both have difficulty with this mission given changing circumstances in the Indian IADS.

Fundamentally, you need either stealth or speed or both to help up the game against an improved IADS.

 

[ziaulislam]

Finally, someone who voiced this opinion otherwise this forum is full of posts which make one think like developing a 5th gen aircraft is peice of cake while in the same breath ppl mention how we lack skills and finances to evolve jf17 further than block 3. In layman's terms its like jumping off to PHD when you haven't even finished your bachelors yet.

I beleive instead of venturing into 5th gen we should simply buy few squadrons of FC31 off the shelf from China (if and when available). When countries like US, China and Russia are not fully relying on 5th gen and the true backbone of their fleet is going to be 4.5 gen then how come Pakistan go with a full focus on 5th (not to mention the associated price tag).

It would make sense for Pakistan to have thunders together with some decent medium weight 4.5gen aircraft (or thunders evolved further into a medium weight category in parallel with the likes of f16Vs/j10C, strike varients, indigenously developed mission pods, avoinics etc) to compliment the limited fleet of 5th gen forming the spear head.

Another option would be to look for JV with country who really needs a patner..

The only country that is in that position is turkey

They have the basic expertise and support from western allies(especially england) to get it done

 

[araz]

tbh, I think the PAF should fully jump into the FC-31. Basically, go for 120+ aircraft to ensure we have as modern and capable a fleet as possible (alongside JF-17B/Block-III and F-16 Block-52+). In turn, we skip interim 4.5-gen fighters (outside of the JF-17). Other than that, we start a demonstrator project and use it to develop UCAVs and, eventually, a manned next-gen fighter (2030s/2040s).

I dont know why but PAF has not gone for J31 AT ALL. Initially we thought it was a case of the Chinese expecting us to fork out money to co fund the development. But even then we have not seen much progress on J31 so fat. Sure there are rumors that a new naval variant is on the way but in reality nothing much has gone on. So one wonders what actually is going on with that project. Hold up on an appropriate engine:seems to be a big hurdle butthere is something more tuan that. The second big question .ark is whether the Chinese will actually allow you offsets on their pet projects but rather that you remained a client state.
With Turkey again we see a lot of showmanship but there are big question marks over engines and where it is going to source them from. The two contenders are EU and US both of which would be reluctant to have their products being ssold to Pakistan. So unless there is credible information on progress in the engine manufacturing sector Turkish projects are risky. So the next qnd most important question is where is Pakistan going to source its engines from.
A

 

[ziaulislam]

I dont know why but PAF has not gone for J31 AT ALL. Initially we thought it was a case of the Chinese expecting us to fork out money to co fund the development. But even then we have not seen much progress on J31 so fat. Sure there are rumors that a new naval variant is on the way but in reality nothing much has gone on. So one wonders what actually is going on with that project. Hold up on an appropriate engine:seems to be a big hurdle butthere is something more tuan that. The second big question .ark is whether the Chinese will actually allow you offsets on their pet projects but rather that you remained a client state.
With Turkey again we see a lot of showmanship but there are big question marks over engines and where it is going to source them from. The two contenders are EU and US both of which would be reluctant to have their products being ssold to Pakistan. So unless there is credible information on progress in the engine manufacturing sector Turkish projects are risky. So the next qnd most important question is where is Pakistan going to source its engines from.
A

i doubt england/RR will have an issue supplying engines to pakistan.
rest of technology turkey might be able to built by itself

there is no other country, not china not anyone else who will share with you or do JV with you any more

yes china will give you pretty cheap weapons

 

[Readerdefence]

Doubt it..PAF will need those engines as spares

Hi thanks for your reply it means PAF won’t be getting Chinese engines in near future
Thank you

 

[Readerdefence]

First of all placing a new engine which itself will take 2 to 3 years at minimum.

Furthermore look at the capability gaps. Mirrage is more of a ground attack aircraft only with limited air to air combat capabilities. Thunder is an all rounder. Its not as much mature as mirrage in terms of use of SOW but if u want to invest time in development then why on mirrages which should be retired in 5 years? Better to invest this time in integrating those SOW weapons on thunder which will be working for us for atleast next 25 years.

Hi thanks for your reply but I’m not suggesting a new engine was encouraging to utilise jf17 engines from stock bit as you have mentioned about the time line of retiring mirages im sure they will go beyond five years of time line I agree with you on part of customisation of jf17 for SOW weapons but at the moment you can see the progress yourself that it might take longer then 3/4 years to give full autonomy to jf17 whatever role mirages are doing at the moment
As some senior posters are discussing about not inducting any new fighter in PAF I’m sure mirages will go extra miles beyond 5 years of timeline
If we calculate roughly around 70/100 mirages if I’m not wrong or you can give some info on these numbers PAF can’t afford to have these out in 5 years or say 7 years
I might be wrong here but PAC knows inside out of mirages more than jf17s
So I’m not advocating about lingering with mirages but don’t have any other choice at the moment until unless a delta wing j10 which looks like not coming
Thank you

 

[The Accountant]

Hi thanks for your reply but I’m not suggesting a new engine was encouraging to utilise jf17 engines from stock bit as you have mentioned about the time line of retiring mirages im sure they will go beyond five years of time line I agree with you on part of customisation of jf17 for SOW weapons but at the moment you can see the progress yourself that it might take longer then 3/4 years to give full autonomy to jf17 whatever role mirages are doing at the moment
As some senior posters are discussing about not inducting any new fighter in PAF I’m sure mirages will go extra miles beyond 5 years of timeline
If we calculate roughly around 70/100 mirages if I’m not wrong or you can give some info on these numbers PAF can’t afford to have these out in 5 years or say 7 years
I might be wrong here but PAC knows inside out of mirages more than jf17s
So I’m not advocating about lingering with mirages but don’t have any other choice at the moment until unless a delta wing j10 which looks like not coming
Thank you

Brother, change in engine is a very complicated process and it will take time. It will take alot of resources of PAF just to integrate and in return what will we get ? 2 to 3 years of additional life? Why dont we use same resources to expedite the integration of SOW and other weapons so that thunder can take role of mirages.

You need to understand in era of BVR mirage will be a sitting duck on its own. Even bison has more punch in air to air combat then mirages. Why putting life of our pilots in danger?

Engines of thunder will give much more output in thunders than mirages. We have passed mirage upgaradation phase when we got thunder. Now any new development will be in thunders and vipers only. Mirages and F7 will be retired gradually. This is the most efficient way forward.

What I see that if we keep good relationship with USA, then F16s will go through same life cycle in PAF as mirage did. Alot of countries are going to retire F16s after getting F35s, tempest and other high end aircrafts. So if Pakistan move the right strings they can buy and upgrade them within PAF. Or even without upgrading, they can be converted from air superiority to work horse fighters of PAF while PAF can focus on 5th generation for air superiority and deep strike role.

 

[Materialistic]

tbh, I think the PAF should fully jump into the FC-31. Basically, go for 120+ aircraft to ensure we have as modern and capable a fleet as possible (alongside JF-17B/Block-III and F-16 Block-52+). In turn, we skip interim 4.5-gen fighters (outside of the JF-17). Other than that, we start a demonstrator project and use it to develop UCAVs and, eventually, a manned next-gen fighter (2030s/2040s).

Agree, that approach would give us ample time to develop our in-house technologies without holding fleet modernization. Because naturally it will take time and hurdles/failures may be expected when we build a 5th gen jet for the first time all on our own!

Another option would be to look for JV with country who really needs a patner..

The only country that is in that position is turkey

They have the basic expertise and support from western allies(especially england) to get it done

I think doors for JV are pretty much closed for us now, because what I remember from the forum discussions it was hinted somewhere that Turkey has already shown us Red signal for TFX joint-venture. They may be looking for someone to fill in the technological and financial gaps while in our case we can't meet them in both even in case of thunder we are not manufacturing anything in house. Countries like S.Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia are ideal for Turkey to team up with. The only other option for us is China and that boat has already sailed too because China no longer needs us for Western experience related inputs, they are way ahead now in technology to find anything significant from our usage of western products and now we are more like a long-term customer who has no other place to shop.

 

[Materialistic]

i doubt england/RR will have an issue supplying engines to pakistan.

England may have a few reasons:

• Risk of China getting its hand on those beautiful powerplants (where China is already struggling).
• Pakistan getting a key component for its 5th Gen program which will annoy India and let me remind here: India was categorically mentioned in all their pro-brexit campaigns. Pro-Brexitiers wanted to walk away from EU to be able to secure more lucrative deals with China, India & US. It was one of key element in their argument.
• Again on the other hand UK may face pressure from US as it plays against its major partner in the Pacific.

 

[Yasser76]

England may have a few reasons:

• Risk of China getting its hand on those beautiful powerplants (where China is already struggling).
• Pakistan getting a key component for its 5th Gen program which will annoy India and let me remind here: India was categorically mentioned in all their pro-brexit campaigns. Pro-Brexitiers wanted to walk away from EU to be able to secure more lucrative deals with China, India & US. It was one of key element in their argument.
• Again on the other hand UK may face pressure from US as it plays against its major partner in the Pacific.

Actually a very recent Royal United Service Institute paper suggested the UK has many reasons for strategic cooperation with Pakistan, including tech in the defence sector.

https://rusi.org/commentary/imran-khan-pakistan-and-strategic-relevance-uk

 

[ziaulislam]

England may have a few reasons:

• Risk of China getting its hand on those beautiful powerplants (where China is already struggling).
• Pakistan getting a key component for its 5th Gen program which will annoy India and let me remind here: India was categorically mentioned in all their pro-brexit campaigns. Pro-Brexitiers wanted to walk away from EU to be able to secure more lucrative deals with China, India & US. It was one of key element in their argument.
• Again on the other hand UK may face pressure from US as it plays against its major partner in the Pacific.

not, if turkey and pakistan combine are giving UK a big slice of money
you are forgetting that this will be potentially a lot of billions of dollars..
so far England is not under India influence only France and Germany are tough on us
in the past we have shown that we wont share tech with china..s that is never the issue..
issue is india..

 

[ghazi52]

 

[khanasifm]

https://www.facebook.com/

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Parvaz hey Junoon movie about at oaf site or padg fb

At 43:00 jf vs mirage is discussed and the edge of jf over mirage 2000 which is better than paF mirage 3/5

jf will replace mirages 2
Cheers

 

[mingle]

Actually a very recent Royal United Service Institute paper suggested the UK has many reasons for strategic cooperation with Pakistan, including tech in the defence sector.

https://rusi.org/commentary/imran-khan-pakistan-and-strategic-relevance-uk

But theior products are very expensive