Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[ghazi52]

 

[air marshal]

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/2887

 

[air marshal]

https://falcons.pk/photo/Dassault-Mirage-IIIEA/2889

 

[PakShaheen79]

OK. If this highlighted part is correct. I am wondering why PAF/PAC never tried to replace the power plant of Mirages? Now I don't know if there is a technical issue which bars from replacing a turbojet with a turbofan but with complete freedom and capability of building air frame from scratch, this must have been done. May be the cost was a problem. What you guys have to say in this regard.

[Edit] : I am adding this news item from 2001. Look at the engine which was being evaluated in Cheeta-D


Upgrade for South African fighters
18 June 2001

• Save article

A joint Russo-South African upgrade for the SAAF's Mirage-based Atlas Cheetah fighters is to be undertaken. Russian sources reveal that a formal announcement will be made at the MAKS-2001 Air Salon at Moscow's Zhukhovskii aerodrome in August. According to ITAR-TASS, the upgrade is to be undertaken jointly by South Africa's Armscor, the Russian MiG aircraft building corporation, the V. Ya. Klimov engine plant and the Vympel State Machine Building Design Bureau. The exact content of the upgrade has not been revealed, although it is thought to include the Advanced Combat Wing (ACW) developed in South Africa, re-engining with the MiG-29's RD-33 turbofan (already flight tested by a South African Mirage F1 and a Cheetah D), and the integration of new weapons and avionics systems, probably including the Vympel RVV-AE (AA-12 ‘Adder').

Modernisation

The upgrade will also provide a significant life extension, allowing the modernised Cheetahs to fly for a further 15 years. News of the upgrade comes as a surprise, as South Africa's Cheetahs were previously expected to be replaced by the SAAB/BAE Systems Gripens ordered last year. The aircraft may be being upgraded to be sold on to a third party, and not for use by the SAAF. The upgrade will also be offered to third party operators of the Mirage III, 5 and 50, including Pakistan, Peru and Venezuela, and perhaps to Argentina, which operates the similar Israeli-built Dagger (Finger) fighters. This represents an estimated $6 billion market comprising about 300-400 candidate aircraft.

Source: Flight Daily News
https://www.flightglobal.com/upgrade-for-south-african-fighters/37933.article

So, theoretically speaking, there is a possibility for PAC to extend the capabilities of PAF Mirages close to Mirage2000. Should we do that in presence of JF-17s remains a different debate altogether.

 

[denel]

View attachment 657032
OK. If this highlighted part is correct. I am wondering why PAF/PAC never tried to replace the power plant of Mirages? Now I don't know if there is a technical issue which bars from replacing a turbojet with a turbofan but with complete freedom and capability of building air frame from scratch, this must have been done. May be the cost was a problem. What you guys have to say in this regard.

[Edit] : I am adding this news item from 2001. Look at the engine which was being evaluated in Cheeta-D


Upgrade for South African fighters
18 June 2001

• Save article

A joint Russo-South African upgrade for the SAAF's Mirage-based Atlas Cheetah fighters is to be undertaken. Russian sources reveal that a formal announcement will be made at the MAKS-2001 Air Salon at Moscow's Zhukhovskii aerodrome in August. According to ITAR-TASS, the upgrade is to be undertaken jointly by South Africa's Armscor, the Russian MiG aircraft building corporation, the V. Ya. Klimov engine plant and the Vympel State Machine Building Design Bureau. The exact content of the upgrade has not been revealed, although it is thought to include the Advanced Combat Wing (ACW) developed in South Africa, re-engining with the MiG-29's RD-33 turbofan (already flight tested by a South African Mirage F1 and a Cheetah D), and the integration of new weapons and avionics systems, probably including the Vympel RVV-AE (AA-12 ‘Adder').

Modernisation

The upgrade will also provide a significant life extension, allowing the modernised Cheetahs to fly for a further 15 years. News of the upgrade comes as a surprise, as South Africa's Cheetahs were previously expected to be replaced by the SAAB/BAE Systems Gripens ordered last year. The aircraft may be being upgraded to be sold on to a third party, and not for use by the SAAF. The upgrade will also be offered to third party operators of the Mirage III, 5 and 50, including Pakistan, Peru and Venezuela, and perhaps to Argentina, which operates the similar Israeli-built Dagger (Finger) fighters. This represents an estimated $6 billion market comprising about 300-400 candidate aircraft.

Source: Flight Daily News
https://www.flightglobal.com/upgrade-for-south-african-fighters/37933.article

So, theoretically speaking, there is a possibility for PAC to extend the capabilities of PAF Mirages close to Mirage2000. Should we do that in presence of JF-17s remains a different debate altogether.

Yes there is a very strong possibility if you choose to get Cheetah upgrade. RD-33 is not a simple plug into frame; there is a challenge with center of gravity which requires a change to the airframe too.

 

[araz]

Yes there is a very strong possibility if you choose to get Cheetah upgrade. RD-33 is not a simple plug into frame; there is a challenge with center of gravity which requires a change to the airframe too.

Thank you. This was the answer I was looking for. It is not a simple exercise of "take this engine out and put this one in". It would have been interesting to see what PAF's perspective was and whether they felt the gain was not worth the effort. But then I dont think they were planning to continue using the M3/5s till 2025. A simple answer to whether the cheetah upgrade would still be relevant in 2025 is what one would aspire to hear from a resident expert. In spite of the effort the South Africans did not induct the platform in any significant numbers which says a lot. The Israelis on the other hand do use it and keep upgrading it. So the assignment for anyone to take on is what the Israelis have done to the kfir as compared to the south african cheetah programme.
A

 

[denel]

Thank you. This was the answer I was looking for. It is not a simple exercise of "take this engine out and put this one in". It would have been interesting to see what PAF's perspective was and whether they felt the gain was not worth the effort. But then I dont think they were planning to continue using the M3/5s till 2025. A simple answer to whether the cheetah upgrade would still be relevant in 2025 is what one would aspire to hear from a resident expert. In spite of the effort the South Africans did not induct the platform in any significant numbers which says a lot. The Israelis on the other hand do use it and keep upgrading it. So the assignment for anyone to take on is what the Israelis have done to the kfir as compared to the south african cheetah programme.
A

Actually, for us Cheetah was a stop gap measure until Lavi was available. We had converted all our airframes to Cheetah (that is entire fleet plus more using older Neshers). Then of course the situation changed completely not only around us but globally with soviet union dissolving. Kfir programs also too were slated to be halted for Lavi's induction.

But the fact we have already done this work it is available; i would not bother upgrading the engine if airframe upgrade is not on the cards..

 

[araz]

Actually, for us Cheetah was a stop gap measure until Lavi was available. We had converted all our airframes to Cheetah (that is entire fleet plus more using older Neshers). Then of course the situation changed completely not only around us but globally with soviet union dissolving. Kfir programs also too were slated to be halted for Lavi's induction.

But the fact we have already done this work it is available; i would not bother upgrading the engine if airframe upgrade is not on the cards..

Thank you once again for your input. I think PAF utilized the M3/5s to their best capability so they are not in the mood to fiddle with it beyond what is considered absolutely essential. The Horus acquisition sèems a departure from this line of thought but I guess having a 1 1/2 squadron of BVR capable fighters as a last resort is not a bad idea. The primary role of ground attack will remain the domain of the Mirages till they are retired.
A

 

[ghazi52]

 

[nomi007]

H2 standoff weapon

 

[The Raven]

H2 standoff weapon
View attachment 658162

That's a Buccaneer ground attack aircraft.

 

[Yasser76]

That's a Buccaneer ground attack aircraft.

Yes, SAAF used to used them

 

[denel]

That's a Buccaneer ground attack aircraft.

Yes it is. Amazing aircraft. I remember long back when we were told to support raid on Lusaka using these. Everything had to be perfect given the boys would be pushing it to the max range. This was a day time raid around 2pm.

 

[The Raven]

Yes it is. Amazing aircraft. I remember long back when we were told to support raid on Lusaka using these. Everything had to be perfect given the boys would be pushing it to the max range. This was a day time raid around 2pm.

Indeed, I recall how the Brits were still using it for precision strike missions in the first Gulf war in the early 90s. How did you guys find the Bucc in the low level role, especially in the hot and dusty conditions on Africa?

 

[denel]

Indeed, I recall how the Brits were still using it for precision strike missions in the first Gulf war in the early 90s. How did you guys find the Bucc in the low level role, especially in the hot and dusty conditions on Africa?

It was a potent bomber. ideal for our situation; remember we are at very high altitude - average 1200m+ above sea level. It was also designed for carrying our nuclear warheads as well. The only bomber which could carry it internally.
It is interesting ... wiki does not mention that raid in 86 .