Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Khanivore]

The main problem with JF-17 is it cannot carry critical weapons like H2/H4 & RAAD. We have to either modify tbe weapons or the plane.

Plus the Mirage 5 can carry 10-14 bombs, which the JF-17 cannot.

 

[Shah_Deu]

Just made a rough comparison between ATAR 9C and RD-33 based on figures from open source. The difference in the diameters of ATAR 9C and RD-33 looks minor i.e. ~4 cm to be precise. Diameter is the most critical parameter in case a jet engine-swap is made. A smaller overall length (almost 1.7m less with RD-33) would mean more space available for fuel or avionics if the swap is successful for instance. Although a higher thrust with RD-33 series of engines would mean more stress on the airframe, but the study could be interesting for PAF. Such studies might act as a reference point for trying newer engines later in JF-17 or Project AZM.

IMHO, PAF has nothing to lose by taking over such a small developmental projects on a regular basis. We already have the raw materials for such a project i.e. spare RD-93s and Mirage airframes in our inventory. A combination of Masters and PhD candidates from NUST or Air University could be handed over the projects to see if it is at all worth it. The project could be further divided into

1. Homologation studies (Physical Integration of RD-93 in the airframe of Mirages)
2. Fatigue and Stess Testing with new Engine on a Testbench (using non-destructive Ultrasonic testing (UT) and/or in Testflights
3. Electronic Integration of RD93 with Mirage's main ECM (Electronic Control Module)

It still might not work and the whole study might bring nothing, but this is what R&D is all about. Negative results also count as results in R&D. On the other hand, a success could bring long term dividends; both on our operational (commonality of engines across the JF-17 and Mirage fleet) and by enriching our R&D skill levels!

Additionally if such a study is successful, we could try to use our expertise developed around the manufacturing of JF-17 airframes to develop newer airframes based on the existing Mirage design by reverse engineering. Coordinate Measuring Machines (CMM) these days could provide exact coordinates of any part (PAF possesses this capability) which could then be exported to any CAD software like CATIA V5, SolidWorks or Siemens NX to generate 3D drawings. These drawings could then be used to carry out FEM calculations with solvers like Abaqus, Ansys or Siemens Nastran to do the stress modeling. CFD calculations including simulations and tunnel testing wouldnt be that thoroughly needed as long as airframe design is carried over. Furthermore, these drawings could then be coupled with 3D Printing technology to print some of the complex parts afterwards. Our JF-17 manufacturing experience including the development of jigs and fixtures, high tensile riveting and surface heat treatment of body panels would be utilized as well.

 

[khanasifm]

Today’s environment number of weapons is not important but rather precision is

4 gbu can do more than 10 dumb bombs

with advent of small dia now things has changed as well

lastly two pk-84 which only jf and f-16 can carry can do more than 10 dumb 500 ponders


Anyway mirage will do for now It provides numbers and specialized roles which jf will fill but cannot induct 6/7 sqn worth of aircraft is a year or two most likely one sqn per year means 6/7 years after 2024 so mirages are going to be here till at least 2030 At least

 

[Bossman]

Just made a rough comparison between ATAR 9C and RD-33 based on figures from open source. The difference in the diameters of ATAR 9C and RD-33 looks minor i.e. ~4 cm to be precise. Diameter is the most critical parameter in case a jet engine-swap is made. A smaller overall length (almost 1.7m less with RD-33) would mean more space available for fuel or avionics if the swap is successful for instance. Although a higher thrust with RD-33 series of engines would mean more stress on the airframe, but the study could be interesting for PAF. Such studies might act as a reference point for trying newer engines later in JF-17 or Project AZM.

IMHO, PAF has nothing to lose by taking over such a small developmental projects on a regular basis. We already have the raw materials for such a project i.e. spare RD-93s and Mirage airframes in our inventory. A combination of Masters and PhD candidates from NUST or Air University could be handed over the projects to see if it is at all worth it. The project could be further divided into

1. Homologation studies (Physical Integration of RD-93 in the airframe of Mirages)
2. Fatigue and Stess Testing with new Engine on a Testbench (using non-destructive Ultrasonic testing (UT) and/or in Testflights
3. Electronic Integration of RD93 with Mirage's main ECM (Electronic Control Module)

It still might not work and the whole study might bring nothing, but this is what R&D is all about. Negative results also count as results in R&D. On the other hand, a success could bring long term dividends; both on our operational (commonality of engines across the JF-17 and Mirage fleet) and by enriching our R&D skill levels!

Additionally if such a study is successful, we could try to use our expertise developed around the manufacturing of JF-17 airframes to develop newer airframes based on the existing Mirage design by reverse engineering. Coordinate Measuring Machines (CMM) these days could provide exact coordinates of any part (PAF possesses this capability) which could then be exported to any CAD software like Dassault Systemes CATIA V5, SolidWorks or Siemens NX to generate 3D drawings. These drawings could then be used to carry out FEM calculations with solvers like Dassault Systemes Abaqus, Ansys or Siemens Nastran to do the stress modeling. CFD calculations including simulations and tunnel testing wouldnt be that thoroughly needed as long as airframe design is carried over. Furthermore, these drawings could then be coupled with 3D Printing technology to print some of the complex parts afterwards. Our JF-17 manufacturing experience including the development of jigs and fixtures, high tensile riveting and surface heat treatment of body panels would be utilized as well.

View attachment 621248

South Africans have tested RD33 on Mirage 3. TOT is available to Pakistan. Ukrainians have a large number of sealed zero time RD33s available.

 

[mingle]

South Africans have tested RD33 on Mirage 3. TOT is available to Pakistan. Ukrainians have a large number of sealed zero run RD33s available.

If PAF thinking to Run mirage program till next decade then engine change is important same engine like JF-17 has no problem in maintaining them except body whole things should be new

 

[Bossman]

If PAF thinking to Run mirage program till next decade then engine change is important same engine like JF-17 has no problem in maintaining them except body whole things should be new

They might be coming, re-engined and full glass cockpit Mirages. We’ll have to rename them as nothing of the old mirage will be left in them.

 

[mingle]

They might be coming, re-engined and full glass cockpit Mirages. We’ll have to rename them as nothing of the old mirage will be left in them.

If this happens it would be nice along F16 s and JF-17 good idea when we have whole factory here pure dedicated strike platform.
I hope PAF will opted more F16s along V upgrades

 

[Bossman]

They might be coming, re-engined and full glass cockpit Mirages. We’ll have to rename them as nothing of the old mirage will be left in them.

Sorry forgot about the new AESA

 

[mingle]

Sorry forgot about the new AESA

Never know money is tight everywhere.
How about new mirages name,, Strikers,, when purpose is deep strike

 

[Philip the Arab]

You can also solve the H2/H4 limitation by arming the JF-17 with the Raptor III. It's likely compact enough to fit under each wing of the JF-17 -- if not Block-I/II, then certainly Block-III/JF-17B. You could have a single JF-17B deploy to Raptor IIIs, one on fire-and-forget using INS/GNSS, and the other manual operation (with the WSO).

Interestingly, Denel Dynamics took the entire project offline after showing it off. So, it's possible that the PAF did buy out the project (i.e., @JamD's guess re: the boxed-out 'extended range smart weapon' tested in 2019).

Doesn't CM802AKG seem like a better system for JF-17? Engine gives it good range, and much faster speeds. It is also already integrated with JF-17 unlike the Raptor.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Doesn't CM802AKG seem like a better system for JF-17? Engine gives it good range, and much faster speeds. It is also already integrated with JF-17 unlike the Raptor.

Raptor III offers a much larger warhead (600 kg vs 200-300 kg) and longer range (280 km).

 

[Philip the Arab]

Raptor III offers a much larger warhead (600 kg vs 200-300 kg) and longer range (280 km).

How easy, or hard would integration be? And there are 2 that can be carried right?

 

[syed_yusuf]

Just made a rough comparison between ATAR 9C and RD-33 based on figures from open source. The difference in the diameters of ATAR 9C and RD-33 looks minor i.e. ~4 cm to be precise. Diameter is the most critical parameter in case a jet engine-swap is made. A smaller overall length (almost 1.7m less with RD-33) would mean more space available for fuel or avionics if the swap is successful for instance. Although a higher thrust with RD-33 series of engines would mean more stress on the airframe, but the study could be interesting for PAF. Such studies might act as a reference point for trying newer engines later in JF-17 or Project AZM.

IMHO, PAF has nothing to lose by taking over such a small developmental projects on a regular basis. We already have the raw materials for such a project i.e. spare RD-93s and Mirage airframes in our inventory. A combination of Masters and PhD candidates from NUST or Air University could be handed over the projects to see if it is at all worth it. The project could be further divided into

1. Homologation studies (Physical Integration of RD-93 in the airframe of Mirages)
2. Fatigue and Stess Testing with new Engine on a Testbench (using non-destructive Ultrasonic testing (UT) and/or in Testflights
3. Electronic Integration of RD93 with Mirage's main ECM (Electronic Control Module)

It still might not work and the whole study might bring nothing, but this is what R&D is all about. Negative results also count as results in R&D. On the other hand, a success could bring long term dividends; both on our operational (commonality of engines across the JF-17 and Mirage fleet) and by enriching our R&D skill levels!

Additionally if such a study is successful, we could try to use our expertise developed around the manufacturing of JF-17 airframes to develop newer airframes based on the existing Mirage design by reverse engineering. Coordinate Measuring Machines (CMM) these days could provide exact coordinates of any part (PAF possesses this capability) which could then be exported to any CAD software like CATIA V5, SolidWorks or Siemens NX to generate 3D drawings. These drawings could then be used to carry out FEM calculations with solvers like Abaqus, Ansys or Siemens Nastran to do the stress modeling. CFD calculations including simulations and tunnel testing wouldnt be that thoroughly needed as long as airframe design is carried over. Furthermore, these drawings could then be coupled with 3D Printing technology to print some of the complex parts afterwards. Our JF-17 manufacturing experience including the development of jigs and fixtures, high tensile riveting and surface heat treatment of body panels would be utilized as well.

View attachment 621248

why noy RB199. they are available in ample and BAe will be able to transfer technolog. the engine is turbofan and much more smaller and lighter than Atar9C. Produces 40 kilonewtons (9,100 lbf) dry, 73 kilonewtons (16,400 lbf) wet

 

[sparten]

Raptor III offers a much larger warhead (600 kg vs 200-300 kg) and longer range (280 km).

Does it come with ToT?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Does it come with ToT?

Probably.