Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Pakistani Fighter]

JH 7 in my eyes will only be useful against Mirages if it could carry Heavy Long Range AshMs as compared to Mirages and will therefore will need to be highly escorted by Air Superiority Fighters

I think the last major upgrade to Mirage fleet was ROSE till 2003, its been almost 15+ years now. Due to older frames and cannibalization of aircraft for spares, it doesn't make sense to keep upgrading the aircraft. Minor changes like IFR probes are acceptable. PAF is not tilting towards J-10 also, EFT cannot be had in large numbers if its even possible to form the line up. JFT is replacing F-7 P, so Mirages still have a decade or two to go until some replacement is found.

A major infrastructure of PAF Mirages is placed at a AFB Rafiqui, Shorkot and then AFB Masroor. So the replacement aircraft will be placed at these bases. Due to nature of specialized roles of 25th and 27th squadrons, modern strike aircraft are required. 15th Sqd is also Tactical Attack, while 7th Sqd is mix of strike and air superiority, so definitely 4 x Sqds worth of a modern jet are required. Ra'ad Capable aircraft could be Chinese or French. Rafale is out of equation, Mirage-2000 option may not be exercised. EFT or SU-35 or any other which comes close to specs, otherwise wait for induction of stealth aircraft to take over strike role.

Can u tell me how Mirages are used as Air Superiority. What A2A missiles and Radars they have for this role?

 

[Signalian]

Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc.
But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes.
These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...

Older F-16 A/B would have been an option to replace at least two Mirage squadrons like 15th and 7th. But a platform is required which can carry Ra'ad, H2/H4, C-802 and other non-american weaponry. This is where J-10, SU-35 or maybe EFT (with comparable weapons to above) come in. Not sure of J-11 license constraints. PAF might drag the mirage till something comes out of Azm.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

C-802

Mirages carry this? I thought they carry Exocets while C 802s are carried by Thunders

 

[Signalian]

JH 7 in my eyes will only be useful against Mirages if it could carry Heavy Long Range AshMs as compared to Mirages and will therefore will need to be highly escorted by Air Superiority Fighters


Can u tell me how Mirages are used as Air Superiority. What A2A missiles and Radars they have for this role?

SELEX Galileo Grifo M3 Radar.
Aim-9 missile.

Mirages carry this? I thought they carry Exocets while C 802s are carried by Thunders

i didn't say Mirage carries this. I said replacement should.

 

[Tipu7]

Older F-16 A/B would have been an option to replace at least two Mirage squadrons like 15th and 7th. But a platform is required which can carry Ra'ad, H2/H4, C-802 and other non-american weaponry. This is where J-10, SU-35 or maybe EFT (with comparable weapons to above) come in. Not sure of J-11 license constraints. PAF might drag the mirage till something comes out of Azm.

F16 is not the right option as it's available weapon package is limited and it suffers from certain technical and strategic restrictions imposed by United States.
The Mirages which are currently 'worthy' of air defense role only, however, can be replaced by Jf17 in current configuration or by surplus F16s (which USA is not willing to allow as per now).
The need is to get an aircraft which can carry all types of munitions which Mirage RI/RII/RIII carries. Which can undertake standoff strike missions, maritime strike roles, SEAD/DEAD missions and anti armor roles.
EFT is too expensive, Gripen got American engine, Su35 has been rejected by PAF due to technical and political reasons and J10 adds too little to justify purchase of separate platform in the presence of Jf17.

PAF might drag the mirage till something comes out of Azm.

Yeah, but Azm (NGFA) is not one on one replacement of Mirage. It's mission profile and operational utility will be very different.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc.
But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes.
These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...

You forgot POL bill they throw due to having 60 year old Turbojets as power pack.

 

[Tipu7]

You forgot POL bill they throw due to having 60 year old Turbojets as power pack.

There is a saying among MRF technicians, 'Jo Mirage k engine ka Kam krta he, wo kisi hisab kitab k bghair bakhsha jae ga'.

 

[The Accountant]

Options are there, money is not. In certain cases, money is there but will is not.
And there are good reasons we keep listening absurd arguments related to combat worth fulness of Mirages. Like 'we have upgraded them now; they are still relevant in modern combat, Op Swift Retort is proof; PAF Mirages have infinite airframe life as we keep updating them at MRF; PAF Mirage Rose are as good as IAF Mirages etc etc.
But the fact is that these aircrafts are now almost obsolete, have poor availability, are heavy maintenance demanding, have poor sortie rate & turn around time. There is need to maintain only 2,3 squadrons of Mirages with most capable airframes.
These aircrafts were suppose to retire by 2025 but apparently will now cross 2030.
A certain lobby within PAF also don't want this aircraft to go. Otherwise their 'bonus kharcha pani' will end up...

Will not agree with last statement but rest is correct.

 

[Signalian]

If PAF have dragged a 3rd generation mirage for decades, I wonder when will PAF retire F-16 !

 

[Haris Ali2140]

If PAF have dragged a 3rd generation mirage for decades, I wonder when will PAF retire F-16 !

Well unlike mirage F-16 will serve in USAF as long as 2040s.

 

[Sine Nomine]

If PAF have dragged a 3rd generation mirage for decades, I wonder when will PAF retire F-16 !

Most probably we would be dead and hopefully our kids would be discussing How to do,this and that with PAF F-16' or maybe pics of F-16 would be posted on vintage fighters of PAF thread.

 

[denel]

( Caution I am a very lazy person and i will miss some details )

As one can interpret from my name I really really love mirages and It is my utmost desired aircraft operated by the Pakistan air force and I have many many memories associated with Mirage (good and bad)

The first thing i would like to address is the engine, assuming we all know that the mirage type 3/5 are immensely under powered and complimented with a horrid aspect ratio just makes it much more difficult to employ the air craft in battle

the snecma atar type turbojet and the rd-93 type turbofan are worlds apart from the core

the snecma (turbo jet) has a sleeker but longer physical profile and the rd 93 is a bulkier but shorter (turbo fan) so it is impossible to interchange the Power plant .

The mirage 3/5 types are heavily upgraded as they are today and are being used for roles they were not intended for and pouring more money into it will be useless in my opinion, think of it in this way ( buying an old mehran upgrading to 22 inch tires, 333 hp Engine, bose sound systems, removing seats and installing a box tank for extra fuel, fitting touchscreen on the dash, getting premium of road GX shock absorbers suspensions, heating element and massage cushion for seat bla bla bla bla) you get the point right? Or you can just buy a lexus lx570 it will cost you a tad more but more comfortable for the driver and easy to use and most importantly safe

To spend more cash on mr crash is not a good idea I can talk a-lot on my baby but it would be much better to replace them (the air frames are getting older and they need a new home called museums) or I can just buy a few

FOR LOW LEVEL STRIKE THE MIRAGE IS VERY VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND THE STRESSES ARE IMMENSE ON THE AIR FRAME.

doing such major upgrades on an air frame that old will give you lots of issues, challenges and heavy heavy testing will be required to test the air craft if every thing but mirage being such an unforgiving air craft I would not want it to fly in today's battle air space to fight the enemy. but make no mistake it can impair you and disable you on the ground but there are platforms that can do it in a bigger number with fewer air craft.


So let me answer your question is it doable......................(NO)..reason (heavy RND, heavy testing, air frame limit, design limit)
Is it Viable....................(NO)....(much better options to the same job on a heavier scale)


I like your enthusiasm

This is where we discussed at length; cheetah program - zero and upgraded airframes, new wings. and improved engine. If these birds have not gone anywhere, they will not go anywhere for next 20 years. Yes RD-33 is a good option but so is atar-9k; cheetah airframe was later modd'ed to have flexibility for a larger engine swap.

 

[Deltadart]

Three scenarios have been discussed in great detail on this thread..... Matter fact going in circles, over and over again.
The 3000+ posts can be summed up in the following three categories.
1. Mirages are obsolete, replace them with newer aircrafts.
2. Refurbish or upgrade them to a higher standard.
3. Soldier on with in house improvements as necessary.

In light of our economic situation, PAF has neither the desire nor the funds to do anything elaborate with the mirages....end of discussion.

 

[MastanKhan]

JH 7 in my eyes will only be useful against Mirages if it could carry Heavy Long Range AshMs as compared to Mirages and will therefore will need to be highly escorted by Air Superiority Fighters


Can u tell me how Mirages are used as Air Superiority. What A2A missiles and Radars they have for this role?

Hi,

" In my eyes " mean nothing---. Give examples of recent warfares---.

 

[Basel]

Why can't u make JF 17 as a precise strike fighter? Modify it to increase its Payload and Ground Clearance

It can perform that role, the problem is that its LCA not MCA, PAF need MCA for strike role, JFT have to be redesigned like Indian LCA to become MCA.