Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[AsifIjaz]

@Oscar @waz @Arsalan @Horus

Is this a mirage thread or a thread where a geezer comes over to vent out his inhibitions, complexes or possibly kills his time. The filth, the poison or the highly questionable / baseless ideas are written without any relevant examples... But are put forth with a conjuring sway with words using weird examples and common phrases and as a result it has the potential to pollute the minds of dozens out there.

The one who questions or refutes the ideas or figment of ones imagination are insulted openly, called names, made a mockery off and not challenged on the basis of intellect or with facts and figures. More so this has led to or leads to people with relevant background stay away from actively participating. An open discussion where anyone or everyone can ask questions or put forward a point of view without being belittled or insulted looks difficult with the above attitude. I have seen derailing of thread after thread after thread after thread and there is no atopping to it.

If mockery of the forum rules is permissible then it should be universal and not limited to a selected few. Why give negative ratings or ban people. Dare i say that have we stood besides while people were allowed to run their mouth just so as to not offend them enough and as a result save our pride and respect??

If not so then I request to please either enforce the rules as its written in black and white or simply make this a free for all.

 

[GriffinsRule]

What about India, Indonesia, and Brazil?

All those countries have a more robust technology base and are ahead of us in most every key economic indicator

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Well, not everyone who's against JH-7 or J-10 believes the F-16 Block-72 will come.

Pakistan's macroeconomic picture is as clear as day, there are scarcely few dollars available. Full stop.

It's a mathematical constraint, we can't import a nice new jet unless we have $1bn+ in hard dollars available every year for 10+ years.

When we had a better economy (via the 1970s), this was doable. When we had aid to hide the gap (Mushy), doable (but things went downhill fast post 2004).

We're only now cutting the trade deficit, albeit with limited prospect of driving more exports to bring in foreign currency.

Our biggest mistake was not investing in developing critical tech like gas turbines or semiconductors at home (even if separately from defence). That could've given us a good base for exporting, attracting foreign investment, etc. To this day, we're still scoffing at it.

Not all is lost!!! Pak can leverage the Turkish proficiency with III-V devices (GaAs, GaN etc.) reaching almost the Bell Labs level!!! These are the building blocks to generate 02-27 class “surprises” spontaneously at wish!!!!

 

[khanasifm]

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But how many other countries can do that?

Let's say it's as few as the number of countries with nuclear weapons. Let's even cut that in half. How would we Pakistanis know of our limits if we've artificially capped them via corruption, negligence, etc? Not only that, but besides the nuclear weapons program, we Pakistanis sat idle across all industrial development for 70+ years!!!

So, of course we'll have difficulties today. But there is no reason why we couldn't have had even 1/10 of the economic benefits India got through the 1990s and 2000s had we made the same kind of effort in technology, business development, education, etc. We keep laughing, that's all we do, even when we're failing.

In the last 5 years, I've seen us Pakistanis spend more energy criticizing what Turkey and South Africa apparently can't do (when they show-off progress) than, I don't know, show their own results. I'd wager that if you gave us Pakistanis oil or gas wealth, we'd look more like Nigeria or Venezuela than say UAE or Qatar.

We had "it" until the early 1990s. I don't know how to describe "it" but "it" was there in our industry development, technology development, education, sports, music, everything. "It" was a blend of swagger and intelligence that we may see sparks of in Imran Khan once in a while, but it was in every Pakistani for a time. @Oscar and @messiach might know what I'm referring to. But "it" was killed, and now we're here.

Anyways, back to the Mirage III/5. I'm of the view that we should at least look at rebuilding them, but outside in South Africa or whoever else has remnant capacity. Even if we manage to acquire another strike fighter (let's say a miracle spurts out of the ocean), I'd keep a few M3/5 dedicated strike squadrons in place, it's extra fire power.

 

[denel]

Let's say it's as few as the number of countries with nuclear weapons. Let's even cut that in half. How would we Pakistanis know of our limits if we've artificially capped them via corruption, negligence, etc? Not only that, but besides the nuclear weapons program, we Pakistanis sat idle across all industrial development for 70+ years!!!

So, of course we'll have difficulties today. But there is no reason why we couldn't have had even 1/10 of the economic benefits India got through the 1990s and 2000s had we made the same kind of effort in technology, business development, education, etc. We keep laughing, that's all we do, even when we're failing.

In the last 5 years, I've seen us Pakistanis spend more energy criticizing what Turkey and South Africa apparently can't do (when they show-off progress) than, I don't know, show their own results. I'd wager that if you gave us Pakistanis oil or gas wealth, we'd look more like Nigeria or Venezuela than say UAE or Qatar.

We had "it" until the early 1990s. I don't know how to describe "it" but "it" was there in our industry development, technology development, education, sports, music, everything. "It" was a blend of swagger and intelligence that we may see sparks of in Imran Khan once in a while, but it was in every Pakistani for a time. @Oscar and @messiach might know what I'm referring to. But "it" was killed, and now we're here.

Anyways, back to the Mirage III/5. I'm of the view that we should at least look at rebuilding them, but outside in South Africa or whoever else has remnant capacity. Even if we manage to acquire another strike fighter (let's say a miracle spurts out of the ocean), I'd keep a few M3/5 dedicated strike squadrons in place, it's extra fire power.

I concur with your assessment; it is a travesty to see why they could not have gone out for a major retrofitment of M3/5 with Atlas - they did retrofit a few things like on the comms/IFR from our end.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I concur with your assessment; it is a travesty to see why they could not have gone out for a major retrofitment of M3/5 with Atlas - they did retrofit a few things like on the comms/IFR from our end.

I don't think the PAF anticipated flying the Mirage 3/5 this late. Even with the Ra'ad ALCM and H-2/H-4 SOWs in the pipeline, the PAF probably expected another fighter to use those weapons. According to the PAF's official 1999-2009 book, the J-10A/FC-20 was supposed to take-up the strike role. We also know that from 1996-2004, the PAF wanted the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2, but the French ended its production, leading the PAF to the FC-20.

 

[Arsalan]

@Oscar @waz @Arsalan @Horus

Is this a mirage thread or a thread where a geezer comes over to vent out his inhibitions, complexes or possibly kills his time. The filth, the poison or the highly questionable / baseless ideas are written without any relevant examples... But are put forth with a conjuring sway with words using weird examples and common phrases and as a result it has the potential to pollute the minds of dozens out there.

The one who questions or refutes the ideas or figment of ones imagination are insulted openly, called names, made a mockery off and not challenged on the basis of intellect or with facts and figures. More so this has led to or leads to people with relevant background stay away from actively participating. An open discussion where anyone or everyone can ask questions or put forward a point of view without being belittled or insulted looks difficult with the above attitude. I have seen derailing of thread after thread after thread after thread and there is no atopping to it.

If mockery of the forum rules is permissible then it should be universal and not limited to a selected few. Why give negative ratings or ban people. Dare i say that have we stood besides while people were allowed to run their mouth just so as to not offend them enough and as a result save our pride and respect??

If not so then I request to please either enforce the rules as its written in black and white or simply make this a free for all.

The posts related to JH7 were moved to a separate thread.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/utility-of-jh7-for-paf.632111/page-7#post-11716074

A few posts cannot be moved as that will disturb the order of discussion however this thread is now not open for JH7 discussion anymore.

 

[gangsta_rap]

I concur with your assessment; it is a travesty to see why they could not have gone out for a major retrofitment of M3/5 with Atlas - they did retrofit a few things like on the comms/IFR from our end.

forget the atlas. think of how incredible it would have been if we got our hands on some of the jewish electronics and gear that they on the kfir. the early 90s was when the backdoor channels with the israelis was conjuring up a few deals here and there

 

[PakAlp]

What aircraft do you guys think Pakistan has missed on? Post 2001 Pakistan had a chance to buy planes and they went for brand new f16 block 52s. What other plane was available which we could afford? J10A was not proven fighter, Euro, Rafael we cannot afford. Mirage 2000? We had f16s so it was no point.

Paf plan was to buy F16s If they become available and they did that. Also had plans since the 1990s to make their own 4th generation plane and they did that. Sounds like a success to me. If we have f7s and Mirages then so has India and China.

We keep forgetting that we are a poor nation which is struggling economically, corruption is through the roof. First fix this.

I can see we need to buy another 4th generation fighter platform but nothing is available for us. Rafael and Euro we cannot afford. J10B is similar to f16. We should admit we have nothing on the market

 

[araz]

What aircraft do you guys think Pakistan has missed on? Post 2001 Pakistan had a chance to buy planes and they went for brand new f16 block 52s. What other plane was available which we could afford? J10A was not proven fighter, Euro, Rafael we cannot afford. Mirage 2000? We had f16s so it was no point.

Paf plan was to buy F16s If they become available and they did that. Also had plans since the 1990s to make their own 4th generation plane and they did that. Sounds like a success to me. If we have f7s and Mirages then so has India and China.

We keep forgetting that we are a poor nation which is struggling economically, corruption is through the roof. First fix this.

I can see we need to buy another 4th generation fighter platform but nothing is available for us. Rafael and Euro we cannot afford. J10B is similar to f16. We should admit we have nothing on the market

Efforts were made in early 2000s to acquire 59 French M2K5s but after setting the price up the French backed out of the deal instead shoving the Rafale up at us. So M2K5s were tried for but not successful.
A

 

[messiach]

Mafias and cartels overtook genuine industrialist. This plague started somewhere the mid-term of Ayub with mafias like now packages etc, reached its peak and continued post 80s with ganjas taking over industry. Madari and military industrial complex followed inline shortly. If IK can do one good thing, he needs to handle the zakootas with abusive contempt, massive financial fines and rigorous imprisonments. I said this to IK, can someone remind him.

We had "it" until the early 1990s. I don't know how to describe "it" but "it" was there in our industry development, technology development, education, sports, music, everything. "It" was a blend of swagger and intelligence that we may see sparks of in Imran Khan once in a while, but it was in every Pakistani for a time. @Oscar and @messiach might know what I'm referring to. But "it" was killed, and now we're here.

@MastanKhan has got some validity in his argument. He is not all wrong. The success of FC-1B (former FC-1E) willl offset some of the exsistential imbalance.

Anyways, back to the Mirage III/5. I'm of the view that we should at least look at rebuilding them, but outside in South Africa or whoever else has remnant capacity. Even if we manage to acquire another strike fighter (let's say a miracle spurts out of the ocean), I'd keep a few M3/5 dedicated strike squadrons in place, it's extra fire power.

 

[Inception-06]

He is the worst thing happen to Pakistan

what could have happened better than him? off-topic, I know, but could not withhold my question!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Mafias and cartels overtook genuine industrialist. This plague started somewhere the mid-term of Ayub with mafias like now packages etc, reached its peak and continued post 80s with ganjas taking over industry. Madari and military industrial complex followed inline shortly. If IK can do one good thing, he needs to handle the zakootas with abusive contempt, massive financial fines and rigorous imprisonments. I said this to IK, can someone remind him.



@MastanKhan has got some validity in his argument. He is not all wrong. The success of FC-1B (former FC-1E) willl offset some of the exsistential imbalance.

The truth is always in the middle. I'm aware, first hand, of conceit/arrogance in some circles (e.g., we tend to make fun of the Turks for some reason, even though they by whatever means are moving ahead, while we haven't).

But I also know of situations where well-meaning PAF efforts were shut down by the US and/or India, e.g., the attempt to buy MBDA & Thales equipment for the JF-17.

Likewise, the M2K/-5 drama can't be reduced to avoiding corruption, I think the fact that Paris wouldn't extend a line-of-credit also played a huge role. There were even efforts for Airbus MRTTs from Europe that got shut down by external pressures on vendors. I think the 1-2 bad apples within seem a lot bigger than they are when you're up against a lot of external pressures.

That said, I do hope we adapt our SOWs for the JF-17. As we've said dozens of times already, if the Ra'ad/II can't fit on the JF-17, then we should figure out a way to make it fit, even if it means creating a new Ra'ad variant.

 

[Deltadart]

Getting back to topic. Does anyone know the status of our mirage purchase from Egypt, and possible purchase of mirage 3S from Switzerland?