Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[F86 Saber]

There are a few things which cannot be disclosed on an open forum, at least i don't want to be the one doing it. PAF will not be going for any more Chinese platforms, JF-17 will mature with Block 3 and that will be the end of the joint fighter jet development with China. Our future is project Azm which is now in advance stages of design and will start bearing fruit for everyone to see in the next 3-4 years.

In the current scenario of shooting from as far as possible, we do not need heavy fighters which will appear on enemy radar earlier than they appear on ours. We already outgun India in the department of BVR range, with the gigantic size of their SU-30's and Mig-29's actually going in our favor and with the new Chinese BVR Missiles like PL-15 we will be improving on that with our existing JF-17s.
There will be no need to use fighter jets for deep strike role, we have cruise missiles for that. PAF has what it needs for now until the launch of Project Azm.

 

[araz]

There are a few things which cannot be disclosed on an open forum, at least i don't want to be the one doing it. PAF will not be going for any more Chinese platforms, JF-17 will mature with Block 3 and that will be the end of the joint fighter jet development with China. Our future is project Azm which is now in advance stages of design and will start bearing fruit for everyone to see in the next 3-4 years.

In the current scenario of shooting from as far as possible, we do not need heavy fighters which will appear on enemy radar earlier than they appear on ours. We already outgun India in the department of BVR range, with the gigantic size of their SU-30's and Mig-29's actually going in our favor and with the new Chinese BVR Missiles like PL-15 we will be improving on that with our existing JF-17s.
There will be no need to use fighter jets for deep strike role, we have cruise missiles for that. PAF has what it needs for now until the launch of Project Azm.

I dont think anyone denies the logic of what you say. PAF is short on its replacement cycle for its legacy platforms. Knowing the intricacies of fifth generation platforms, I would be surprised if one is going to set sight on anything concrete this side of the 30s. As such do we have enough to counter the IAF development and procurement spree or do we get an intermediate jet needs to be seen. I am aware of our difficulties with the Chinese but currently we do not have any willing provider with a suitable platform. These difficulties will persist even with other buyers and as such the sooner we are on our feet the better.
A

 

[F86 Saber]

I dont think anyone denies the logic of what you say. PAF is short on its replacement cycle for its legacy platforms. Knowing the intricacies of fifth generation platforms, I would be surprised if one is going to set sight on anything concrete this side of the 30s. As such do we have enough to counter the IAF development and procurement spree or do we get an intermediate jet needs to be seen. I am aware of our difficulties with the Chinese but currently we do not have any willing provider with a suitable platform. These difficulties will persist even with other buyers and as such the sooner we are on our feet the better.
A

Sir you are a very senior member, i consider myself a novice in this department. I never claim knowing anything, however i feel we should not discuss the "do we's" and "can we's" related to the capabilities of PAF on an open forum. We should leave the enemy guessing, let him underestimate or over estimate our capabilities, it is better for us either way which was evident on 27/2. I however might be naive saying that as there might be many Brigadier Zahoor's in PAF, but i do not want to be one of them.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Shahid Latif tells us how he got warned about any similarities between the F16 to the JF17 by the uS ambassador---.

I would not doubt if the chinese got the same warning---. The US would let you get away with a lot---but you cannot flout your stealing of the design and then strutting around in front of the US.

The chinese cannot but the Pakistanis can---JF 17 is the example---not an F16 but the JF17 body more advanced than and F16 design---. The J31 is a flying aircraft---no investment from pakistan---. Pakistan can pick this aircraft and move ahead with its own changes---in the body---skin---electronics---sensors---sensor fusion---weapons.

If some analysists don't consider it a true 5th gen design---then a new category can be created for it---.

There are 4th gen aircraft---and 4.5 gen aircraft---.

The J31 can fit into a pre-stealth / almost stealth 4.8 / 4.9 gen stealth category---which would still put it ahead of a lots of aircraft and below the F22 / F35---.

There is no such thing as a " a proven aircraft "---. A figher aircraft that is deployed in the field is a proven aircraft---.

The SIMULATED battle conditions during tests flights and simulators are as close as you can get into battle---.

So---what the aircraft will do in the simulator---it would in real time---you just have to be honest with your analysis---.

We have to be honest with ourselves, first and foremost. if we are paying for a 5th generation aircraft, we need to get a 5th generation aircraft. Otherwise the J-10CE is ready, and fulfills the 4.5 generation attributes at a fraction of the costs of a fifth generation fighter over its life-cycle.

The PM's trip this month to salvage/build relations with the US will see where the PAF can go in terms of more F-16s, but if the US doesn't look to turn the transitional relationship into a strategic one, then the PAF will have to ditch plans of more F-16s and get a few squadrons of J-10CE.

Project AZM is similar to the British future fighter program in that it doesn't fixate on a design as such just yet. It outlines key technologies to wait and see develop before picking a design to go with. The economic challenges the nation is facing, means the PAF has to put Project AZM on the back-burner while it works its diplomatic skills in hopes of earning some hard cash. If the PAF can secure some JF-17 sales, it could buy some J-10s and customize them as they see fit (hopefully some Turkish EW pods, and other electronics from their TF-X program as they become available ... giving the PAF the best 4.5 gen fighter in the neighborhood).

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/MEHPOD_Indigenous_Electronic_Warfare_Pod_8628.pdf

 

[MastanKhan]

We have to be honest with ourselves, first and foremost. if we are paying for a 5th generation aircraft, we need to get a 5th generation aircraft. Otherwise the J-10CE is ready, and fulfills the 4.5 generation attributes at a fraction of the costs of a fifth generation fighter over its life-cycle.

The PM's trip this month to salvage/build relations with the US will see where the PAF can go in terms of more F-16s, but if the US doesn't look to turn the transitional relationship into a strategic one, then the PAF will have to ditch plans of more F-16s and get a few squadrons of J-10CE.

Project AZM is similar to the British future fighter program in that it doesn't fixate on a design as such just yet. It outlines key technologies to wait and see develop before picking a design to go with. The economic challenges the nation is facing, means the PAF has to put Project AZM on the back-burner while it works its diplomatic skills in hopes of earning some hard cash. If the PAF can secure some JF-17 sales, it could buy some J-10s and customize them as they see fit (hopefully some Turkish EW pods, and other electronics from their TF-X program as they become available ... giving the PAF the best 4.5 gen fighter in the neighborhood).

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/MEHPOD_Indigenous_Electronic_Warfare_Pod_8628.pdf

Hi,

When the warriors of a nation hedge their bets for not procuring a weapons system in a timely manner---just because they assumed & assessed that the chance of war is very little---that means serious trouble for the welfare of the nation---.

This mindset never worked in any part of history and will never work in modern history either---.

Lesson to be learnt is---never ever stop from buying your weapons in a timely manner---and never stop the procurement for any under the table money transfer as long as the weapon is a quality weapon and is a needed weapon---.

Something has come up recently---& I pray that things don't take a turn for the drastic---but some of the Paf chiefs of the past have put the country in a weak defensive position---.

 

[Rafael]

Hi,

When the warriors of a nation hedge their bets for not procuring a weapons system in a timely---just because they assumed & assessed that the chance of war is very little---that means serious trouble for the welfare of the nation---.

This mindset never worked in any part of history and will never work in modern history either---.

Lesson to be learnt is---never ever stop from buying your weapons in a timely manner---and never stop the procurement for any under the table money transfer as long as the weapon is a quality weapon and is a needed weapon---.

Something has come up recently---& I pray that things don't take a turn for the drastic---but some of the Paf chiefs of the past have put the country in a weak defensive position---.

Can you please elaborate?

 

[araz]

Sir you are a very senior member, i consider myself a novice in this department. I never claim knowing anything, however i feel we should not discuss the "do we's" and "can we's" related to the capabilities of PAF on an open forum. We should leave the enemy guessing, let him underestimate or over estimate our capabilities, it is better for us either way which was evident on 27/2. I however might be naive saying that as there might be many Brigadier Zahoor's in PAF, but i do not want to be one of them.

On a defence forum we debate how things should look from our perspective. If you dont discuss this there is no point in having a defence forum. All we write is based on our own interpretation of what the armed forces will do. This does not include any confidential knowledge. The people in the know sit very quietly and only let out snippets as and when they feel it is appropriate. Still does not prevent people from getting into trouble though.
A

We have to be honest with ourselves, first and foremost. if we are paying for a 5th generation aircraft, we need to get a 5th generation aircraft. Otherwise the J-10CE is ready, and fulfills the 4.5 generation attributes at a fraction of the costs of a fifth generation fighter over its life-cycle.

The PM's trip this month to salvage/build relations with the US will see where the PAF can go in terms of more F-16s, but if the US doesn't look to turn the transitional relationship into a strategic one, then the PAF will have to ditch plans of more F-16s and get a few squadrons of J-10CE.

Project AZM is similar to the British future fighter program in that it doesn't fixate on a design as such just yet. It outlines key technologies to wait and see develop before picking a design to go with. The economic challenges the nation is facing, means the PAF has to put Project AZM on the back-burner while it works its diplomatic skills in hopes of earning some hard cash. If the PAF can secure some JF-17 sales, it could buy some J-10s and customize them as they see fit (hopefully some Turkish EW pods, and other electronics from their TF-X program as they become available ... giving the PAF the best 4.5 gen fighter in the neighborhood).

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/MEHPOD_Indigenous_Electronic_Warfare_Pod_8628.pdf

A couple of points to note.
Firstly PAF cannot and will not delay Project Azm beyond that which is absolutely necessary. The technological leaps involved in achieving our ends with a tangible 5th generation fighter are a real challange to our nascent aviation industry. However we will lok to achieving our ends in the most expedient manner possible.
Regarding the J10C I doubt you will get the same leeway from the Chinese with regards to integrating foreign software/hardware as you have on the JFT. You will have to ask the OEM to do that but the Turks will not allow that integration. So the negotiations for what goes on the J10 are going to be pivotal and indeed a reflection of Pak Chinese collaboration in the current era as the Chinese are becoming more and more secretive about their high end products. However let us wait and see how the cards fall on this hand.
Regards
A

 

[FuturePAF]

On a defence forum we debate how things should look from our perspective. If you dont discuss this there is no point in having a defence forum. All we write is based on our own interpretation of what the armed forces will do. This does not include any confidential knowledge. The people in the know sit very quietly and only let out snippets as and when they feel it is appropriate. Still does not prevent people from getting into trouble though.
A


A couple of points to note.
Firstly PAF cannot and will not delay Project Azm beyond that which is absolutely necessary. The technological leaps involved in achieving our ends with a tangible 5th generation fighter are a real challange to our nascent aviation industry. However we will lok to achieving our ends in the most expedient manner possible.
Regarding the J10C I doubt you will get the same leeway from the Chinese with regards to integrating foreign software/hardware as you have on the JFT. You will have to ask the OEM to do that but the Turks will not allow that integration. So the negotiations for what goes on the J10 are going to be pivotal and indeed a reflection of Pak Chinese collaboration in the current era as the Chinese are becoming more and more secretive about their high end products. However let us wait and see how the cards fall on this hand.
Regards
A

I hope your right, and the PAF isn't prevented from procuring the equipment or investing in future projects, it needs to keep the nation safe, in a timely manner. It may be possible to put some key Turkish sub-systems on the J-10CE. PAC and PAF will have to work out some technology transfer from the Turks and do the integration work at Kamra, themselves. Right now it is a wait and see approach. PAF may have to settle with Pod based EW equipment to satisfy both allies.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

When the warriors of a nation hedge their bets for not procuring a weapons system in a timely---just because they assumed & assessed that the chance of war is very little---that means serious trouble for the welfare of the nation---.

This mindset never worked in any part of history and will never work in modern history either---.

Lesson to be learnt is---never ever stop from buying your weapons in a timely manner---and never stop the procurement for any under the table money transfer as long as the weapon is a quality weapon and is a needed weapon---.

Something has come up recently---& I pray that things don't take a turn for the drastic---but some of the Paf chiefs of the past have put the country in a weak defensive position---.

MK, would love it if you would explain the red part. Would really appreciate it. Nothing classified but something that can help us understand. Is it related to the Israeli pilot we have frozen? Is it related to the oil we have found in the sea?
Is it related to having a first independent and honest leader since... Suharwardy?
Is it related to the strategic reallignment and how China isn't being like the old all weather friend anymore?

Also, could you please also explain what kind of threat JFT program faced from the US? This is a piece of history that is still clouded. And what did PAF do about it?

 

[MastanKhan]

MK, would love it if you would explain the red part. Would really appreciate it. Nothing classified but something that can help us understand. Is it related to the Israeli pilot we have frozen? Is it related to the oil we have found in the sea?
Is it related to having a first independent and honest leader since... Suharwardy?
Is it related to the strategic reallignment and how China isn't being like the old all weather friend anymore?

Also, could you please also explain what kind of threat JFT program faced from the US? This is a piece of history that is still clouded. And what did PAF do about it?

Hi,

For the JFT program---Shahid Latif's interview gives out a clear picture of what happened---how he did it---and how the project progressed---.

I would praise the ACM who picked him up and gave him the job of the project director---because Shahid Latif was and is a fearless do it right a 'hole who cares less about anyone except for the target ahead of him and does not bend to pressure has the mind and brains to adjust according to the situation and yet does not budge from what he is demanding---.

We thank the US for teaching us how to fish & thanks china to give us the hook line & sinker---. The only thing we had to do was to find our WORM---which we did---.

As for the other part----just imagine that the MONGOL army has set its tents outside the city of OTRAR---.

The fears for which I have been crying out loud for the last 14 years on this forum---have become a reality now---.

I am just surprised and shocked how this information was missed out---or maybe it is just me that I did not know when it happened---.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Hi,

For the JFT program---Shahid Latif's interview gives out a clear picture of what happened---how he did it---and how the project progressed---.

I would praise the ACM who picked him up and gave him the job of the project director---because Shahid Latif was and is a fearless do it right a 'hole who cares less about anyone except for the target ahead of him and does not bend to pressure has the mind and brains to adjust according to the situation and yet does not budge from what he is demanding---.

We thank the US for teaching us how to fish & thanks china to give us the hook line & sinker---. The only thing we had to do was to find our WORM---which we did---.

As for the other part----just imagine that the MONGOL army has set its tents outside the city of OTRAR---.

The fears for which I have been crying out loud for the last 14 years on this forum---have become a reality now---.

I am just surprised and shocked how this information was missed out---or maybe it is just me that I did not see its coming---.

Mastan Sb,
There are some who have taken these ayats to there heart. dont worry as Quaid-e-Azam R.A said "There is no power on this Earth that can undo Pakistan"

Surah Anfal
"And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners."

Surah Al Sharh
Therefore, surely there is ease with hardship.Undoubtedly, there is ease with hardship.


wait and see you will be proud upon people of motherland.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Sb,
There are some who have taken these ayats to there heart. dont worry as Quaid-e-Azam R.A said "There is no power on this Earth that can undo Pakistan"

Surah Anfal
"And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners."

Surah Al Sharh
Therefore, surely there is ease with hardship.Undoubtedly, there is ease with hardship.


wait and see you will be proud upon people of motherland.

Hi,

For the second part to happen---there has to be JUSTICE & RULE of Law---the implementation of the writ of the state---.

And that is not an islamic state---.

IK is personally very weak on law & order situation---very very weak---.

Fortunes of nations are not built lackadaisical approach towards Law & order---.

 

[Leclan]

Hi,

You are thinking like a MERCHANT / KAROBARI & NOT A WARRIOR---.

Price is fair---not the best---. Pakistan needs to create an urge of importance with the chinese ambassador to get the price worked at and get a deal done asap---. A gd number would be around 4 sqdrn's---.

But for the need---then price is secondary---.

Remember---BLK3 is a longways away---. Just because it would be going into production in 2020---does not mean that the Pilot & the aircraft JF17 BLK3 would be ready for combat---.

OTOH---the enemy Rafale coming in would be combat ready---.

in recent days a quality answer like u sir is rare and rare.
our new Pak netizens seem to not consider china as trustful partener, but a cunning merchant. meanwhile they want china to act as a dump rich guy who would send high quality equipment just for free, or at some sort of loans which pakistan wont cost what it should cost.

on one hand,they dont trust china on selling equipment at a fair price, on the other hand, they thought china should fulfil its obligation to help Pakistan for free. “all weather friend" is a word used by them to describe china's obligation，not Pakistan's.

well, in this situation, these netizens would never get the best equipment they want. just pay the fair price for western weapon is a better choice.

here if china play as a cunning businessman ,why would China bother upgrading JF17? we could just abondon it and send a FC31 ppt （not even to make a demonstrator ） for Pakistan and bragging a bright future （just like Turkey's TFX and Korea's KFX or even fance-german 5-gen plan）. we can save talent guy who are still working on JF17 to work on the J20 upgrading and J11upgrading.
the trust between two countries should really be cherished,not be damaged by some fantasy netizens.

 

[HRK]

in recent days a quality answer like u sir is rare and rare.
our new Pak netizens seem to not consider china as trustful partener, but a cunning merchant. meanwhile they want china to act as a dump rich guy who would send high quality equipment just for free, or at some sort of loans which pakistan wont cost what it should cost.

on one hand,they dont trust china on selling equipment at a fair price, on the other hand, they thought china should fulfil its obligation to help Pakistan for free. “all weather friend" is a word used by them to describe china's obligation，not Pakistan's.

a wrong assessment of Pakistani thinking ...

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

For the JFT program---Shahid Latif's interview gives out a clear picture of what happened---how he did it---and how the project progressed---.

I would praise the ACM who picked him up and gave him the job of the project director---because Shahid Latif was and is a fearless do it right a 'hole who cares less about anyone except for the target ahead of him and does not bend to pressure has the mind and brains to adjust according to the situation and yet does not budge from what he is demanding---.

We thank the US for teaching us how to fish & thanks china to give us the hook line & sinker---. The only thing we had to do was to find our WORM---which we did---.

As for the other part----just imagine that the MONGOL army has set its tents outside the city of OTRAR---.

The fears for which I have been crying out loud for the last 14 years on this forum---have become a reality now---.

I am just surprised and shocked how this information was missed out---or maybe it is just me that I did not know when it happened---.

MK thank you for the reply. I am trying to search for the Shahid Latif interview, I've watched 5 of them but none mentioned the same. I'll search some more perhaps your posts.

I'm also trying to dig out your posts to see what you mean by the Mongol tents coming together - that a major invasion is about to start - from India or the West... or both?

My best guess as of now is that you mean that the Zionists / West will destroy Iran and Pak will then be the last target left.

on to look through your posts of 14 years.