Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

You are thinking like a MERCHANT / KAROBARI & NOT A WARRIOR---.

Price is fair---not the best---. Pakistan needs to create an urge of importance with the chinese ambassador to get the price worked at and get a deal done asap---. A gd number would be around 4 sqdrn's---.

But for the need---then price is secondary---.

Remember---BLK3 is a longways away---. Just because it would be going into production in 2020---does not mean that the Pilot & the aircraft JF17 BLK3 would be ready for combat---.

OTOH---the enemy Rafale coming in would be combat ready---.

I agree, but you have to think like a Merchant and a Warrior. $4 billion for 4 squadrons may not be currently affordable for the PAF. The Pakistani government should ask the Chinese government to help move some of its unprofitable (due to labor costs) textile factories to Pakistan ASAP, so that Pakistan can earn enough to buy more defense products and pay back its loans. Offsets are how Pakistan and China can both benefit.

 

[MastanKhan]

I agree, but you have to think like a Merchant and a Warrior. $4 billion for 4 squadrons may not be currently affordable for the PAF. The Pakistani government should ask the Chinese government to help move some of its unprofitable (due to labor costs) textile factories to Pakistan ASAP, so that Pakistan can earn enough to buy more defense products and pay back its loans. Offsets are how Pakistan and China can both benefit.

Hi,

That is why Paf has failed in getting the aircraft---.

Now tell me what medicine would you buy for your sick baby daughter---Rs500 for Generic---or Rs 1500 for name brand---and don't give the run around---.

And assuming---you may have a tight squeeze buying name brand---.

Be a salesman---tell china why you need these aircraft---. You will also need to get some JH7A's as well.

Pakistan is in a very critical stage of its existence---.

Get 2 sqdrn's of JH7A's and 2 sqdrn's of J10C's

Have china throw n the JH7A's for free and you just pay them for the upgrades---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

That is why Paf has failed in getting the aircraft---.

Now tell me what medicine would you buy for your sick baby daughter---Rs500 for Generic---or Rs 1500 for name brand---and don't give the run around---.

And assuming---you may have a tight squeeze buying name brand---.

Be a salesman---tell china why you need these aircraft---. You will also need to get some JH7A's as well.

Pakistan is in a very critical stage of its existence---.

Get 2 sqdrn's of JH7A's and 2 sqdrn's of J10C's

Have china throw n the JH7A's for free and you just pay them for the upgrades---.

If you remember, I agreed with you, that we should get the JH-7A and upgrade them, when we were discussing the Saudi Tornado/JH-7A option for the PAF. So I agree the PAF and the government need to agree on a way to get the capabilities we need and quick. $2.5-3 Billion for 36-40 J-10 and 36-40 JH-7A upgraded with AESA radars and other modern strike capabilities may look like an attractive deal for both parties, and a deal they can approach the Chinese with. The Chinese will just have to get the Jets to the PAF over the course of say 36 months from signing such a deal, so the PAF can get the maximum utility from the jets as a qualitative hedge against the Rafale and other modernizing IAF capabilities.

BTW; I would go half brand and half generic to answer your question.

 

[araz]

If the PAF is looking for 3 Squadrons (~51 aircraft) of Delta, why not acquire the J-10CE? In all aspect, a superior aircraft then the Mirage 2000 (arguably equal to the Rafale), and the PAF could customize it as it has when every other Chinese platform it has acquired. When the WS-15 matures, it would theoretically allow the plane to super-cruise and be as efficient to operate, if not more so, then the Eurofighters the PAF was considering a while back, but at a fraction of the price.

BTW, If Pakistan acquires 3 squadrons of J-10CE, it should also add a clause into the purchase to be able to emergency lease with the option to buy a further 3 squadrons of J-10's. A wartime resupply option could ease the burden on the PAF to have as many fighters, if they have the knowledge they can be resupplied in a matter of days, with a fresh batch of J-10s.

Something akin to the wartime resupply in the 1973 mid east war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass

P.S. The planned purchase of 36 J-10B in 2006 was approximately $1.4 Billion or $39 million each. How much do you think the J-10CE in 2019 dollars would cost? The J-10 has a larger flight envelope then the JF-17 and is finally a mature design in the form of the J-10CE with AESA (although that fan art J-10D looked great ). 50 J-10CE would allow the PAF to break its dependence on the F-16, and for a relatively reasonable price.

Also with the added thrust planned on the WS-15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_WS-15), it could allow the J-10 to carry 2 of a smaller version of the CX-1 Missile per aircraft, far out to sea, to defend against any possibly blockade in time of crisis.

something akin to the Brahmos NG
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cc39f8933cc739c8167fa58b4d59e5e8.webp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan

You may yet get your wish regarding the J10C. The question is when and I think 2020- 22 for the announcement and 2024 for the first platform arriving.

 

[FuturePAF]

You may yet get your wish regarding the J10C. The question is when and I think 2020- 22 for the announcement and 2024 for the first platform arriving.

5 years is about how long it will take to sign a deal and train up the pilots and ground crew and industrial maintenance base, but we need an interim solution as well. If we confirm we are going for the J-10 by next year or the year after, we should lease at lease 2 of squadrons of J-10A or J-10B to speed up familiarity among the Air Force. (support services can be provided by PLAAF maintainers, but less and less so as the PAF learns on the job during the lease).

If the nation commits to buying at least 3 squadrons, then that's a decent number, but if it can only afford 2 squadrons, it should ask to acquire 2 squadrons of JH-7A and upgrade them, to fill the Long range Strike role, allowing the J-10 to function as primarily an air superiority fighter.

Preferable; 3-4 squadrons of new J-10CE at a reasonable price negotiated between the PAF and CAC; $40 million and $60 million respectively, would be an ideal situation.

 

[araz]

5 years is about how long it will take to sign a deal and train up the pilots and ground crew and industrial maintenance base, but we need an interim solution as well. If we confirm we are going for the J-10 by next year or the year after, we should lease at lease 2 of squadrons of J-10A or J-10B to speed up familiarity among the Air Force. (support services can be provided by PLAAF maintainers, but less and less so as the PAF learns on the job during the lease).

If the nation commits to buying at least 3 squadrons, then that's a decent number, but if it can only afford 2 squadrons, it should ask to acquire 2 squadrons of JH-7A and upgrade them, to fill the Long range Strike role, allowing the J-10 to function as primarily an air superiority fighter.

Preferable; 3-4 squadrons of new J-10CE at a reasonable price negotiated between the PAF and CAC; $40 million and $60 million respectively, would be an ideal situation.

The time line takes into account the integration and infrastucture build up for the block 3. PAF will have its hands full with integrating JFT. It will not integrate another platform simultaneously. I cannot recall tye time we have done so.
A

 

[fatman17]

The time line takes into account the integration and infrastucture build up for the block 3. PAF will have its hands full with integrating JFT. It will not integrate another platform simultaneously. I cannot recall tye time we have done so.
A

All mirage aircraft in the inventory except 2 squadrons of upgraded mirages will be decommissioned starting 2021. The Egypt mirages will be upgraded to form 1 additional squadron and the rest will be canabalised for spares. JFT block III will stand up in place of the retired mirages. FYI.
The J10C will not be inducted as the JFT block III easily replicates the performance of the Chinese aircraft. As mentioned elsewhere, the Italians have offered a upgraded version of the EFT tranche 1, but our financial situation cannot meet the total cost of this offer.

 

[R Wing]

Hi,

That is why Paf has failed in getting the aircraft---.

Now tell me what medicine would you buy for your sick baby daughter---Rs500 for Generic---or Rs 1500 for name brand---and don't give the run around---.

And assuming---you may have a tight squeeze buying name brand---.

Be a salesman---tell china why you need these aircraft---. You will also need to get some JH7A's as well.

Pakistan is in a very critical stage of its existence---.

Get 2 sqdrn's of JH7A's and 2 sqdrn's of J10C's

Have china throw n the JH7A's for free and you just pay them for the upgrades---.

If you remember, I agreed with you, that we should get the JH-7A and upgrade them, when we were discussing the Saudi Tornado/JH-7A option for the PAF. So I agree the PAF and the government need to agree on a way to get the capabilities we need and quick. $2.5-3 Billion for 36-40 J-10 and 36-40 JH-7A upgraded with AESA radars and other modern strike capabilities may look like an attractive deal for both parties, and a deal they can approach the Chinese with. The Chinese will just have to get the Jets to the PAF over the course of say 36 months from signing such a deal, so the PAF can get the maximum utility from the jets as a qualitative hedge against the Rafale and other modernizing IAF capabilities.

BTW; I would go half brand and half generic to answer your question.

You may yet get your wish regarding the J10C. The question is when and I think 2020- 22 for the announcement and 2024 for the first platform arriving.

5 years is about how long it will take to sign a deal and train up the pilots and ground crew and industrial maintenance base, but we need an interim solution as well. If we confirm we are going for the J-10 by next year or the year after, we should lease at lease 2 of squadrons of J-10A or J-10B to speed up familiarity among the Air Force. (support services can be provided by PLAAF maintainers, but less and less so as the PAF learns on the job during the lease).

If the nation commits to buying at least 3 squadrons, then that's a decent number, but if it can only afford 2 squadrons, it should ask to acquire 2 squadrons of JH-7A and upgrade them, to fill the Long range Strike role, allowing the J-10 to function as primarily an air superiority fighter.

Preferable; 3-4 squadrons of new J-10CE at a reasonable price negotiated between the PAF and CAC; $40 million and $60 million respectively, would be an ideal situation.

The time line takes into account the integration and infrastucture build up for the block 3. PAF will have its hands full with integrating JFT. It will not integrate another platform simultaneously. I cannot recall tye time we have done so.
A

All mirage aircraft in the inventory except 2 squadrons of upgraded mirages will be decommissioned starting 2021. The Egypt mirages will be upgraded to form 1 additional squadron and the rest will be canabalised for spares. JFT block III will stand up in place of the retired mirages. FYI.
The J10C will not be inducted as the JFT block III easily replicates the performance of the Chinese aircraft. As mentioned elsewhere, the Italians have offered a upgraded version of the EFT tranche 1, but our financial situation cannot meet the total cost of this offer.

What about the FC 31? The model at the Paris Air Show seemed to have multiple improvements and it seems to be improving/developing well every year.

 

[fatman17]

What about the FC 31? The model at the Paris Air Show seemed to have multiple improvements and it seems to be improving/developing well every year.

FC31 attributes will be incorporated in the project azm which is still in the planning / drawing board stage. Just as JFT program faced financial delays, expect the same for project azm.

 

[JohnWick]

RAAF Mirages at Whyalla destined for Pakistan

View attachment 371247 View attachment 371246 View attachment 371245

RAAF A-83
View attachment 371244
View attachment 371242

PAF 583
View attachment 371243
View attachment 371241

We also need F-16s from different country.
Just like the above scenario......

 

[FuturePAF]

What about the FC 31? The model at the Paris Air Show seemed to have multiple improvements and it seems to be improving/developing well every year.

Not yet a mature enough design (sensor fusion Avionics still not ready, 5th generation level engines not yet ready, and overall the plane has not received a green light from a Chinese buyer; PLAAF or PLANAF, so Pakistan would be taking a huge risk on an expensive platform unless the Chinese share the costs by operating the type themselves)

 

[Incog_nito]

I guess PAF will just be using Mirages for upcoming bombing runs near Indian and Afghan side border areas. And if something went wrong on the Iranian side then they will again be used.

Actually, PAF seems more concerned over acquiring new fighters from other countries now. To replace Mirages and later on F-16s.

Turkish and Chinese designs are quite affordable for Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Not yet a mature enough design (sensor fusion Avionics still not ready, 5th generation level engines not yet ready, and overall the plane has not received a green light from a Chinese buyer; PLAAF or PLANAF, so Pakistan would be taking a huge risk on an expensive platform unless the Chinese share the costs by operating the type themselves)

Hi,

What is a mature design---?

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

What is a mature design---?

The required systems have reached a capability sufficient to carry out the mission. The 5th generation aircraft need to be able to use their stealth in such as manner where it is a significant improvement over a reduced RCS 4th generation aircraft. Hence the need for adequate sensor fusion to identify and process threats actively and passively; kinetically or electronically. Also the engines need super cruise such that they can achieve significant range and low IR signature to reduce detection.

Finally the J-31 should be induced into the PLAAF and PLANAF before the PAF considers purchasing it, so that it is not stuck funding future development single handedly.

 

[MastanKhan]

The required systems have reached a capability sufficient to carry out the mission. The 5th generation aircraft need to be able to use their stealth in such as manner where it is a significant improvement over a reduced RCS 4th generation aircraft. Hence the need for adequate sensor fusion to identify and process threats actively and passively; kinetically or electronically. Also the engines need super cruise such that they can achieve significant range and low IR signature to reduce detection.

Finally the J-31 should be induced into the PLAAF and PLANAF before the PAF considers purchasing it, so that it is not stuck funding future development single handedly.

Hi,

Shahid Latif tells us how he got warned about any similarities between the F16 to the JF17 by the uS ambassador---.

I would not doubt if the chinese got the same warning---. The US would let you get away with a lot---but you cannot flout your stealing of the design and then strutting around in front of the US.

The chinese cannot but the Pakistanis can---JF 17 is the example---not an F16 but the JF17 body more advanced than and F16 design---. The J31 is a flying aircraft---no investment from pakistan---. Pakistan can pick this aircraft and move ahead with its own changes---in the body---skin---electronics---sensors---sensor fusion---weapons.

If some analysists don't consider it a true 5th gen design---then a new category can be created for it---.

There are 4th gen aircraft---and 4.5 gen aircraft---.

The J31 can fit into a pre-stealth / almost stealth 4.8 / 4.9 gen stealth category---which would still put it ahead of a lots of aircraft and below the F22 / F35---.

There is no such thing as a " a proven aircraft "---. A figher aircraft that is deployed in the field is a proven aircraft---.

The SIMULATED battle conditions during tests flights and simulators are as close as you can get into battle---.

So---what the aircraft will do in the simulator---it would in real time---you just have to be honest with your analysis---.