Bangladesh urges Pakistan apology for 1971 ‘crimes’

[xebex]

let the past be past, the idea of apology is just stupid. It wont do any good than to screw the relationship. let the new generation join hands and move forward.

 

[blain2]

The term kafir may mean one thing in dictionary, but its general usage is directed towards creating religious hatred towards the one who is termed such, and therefore my objection.

So you mean that ummah exists just in thoughts of people but when time to action comes they tend to ignore it, don\'t hear about it much when it comes to actions by nations, just some rantings on a board pretty much what the ummah is relegated to.

My point was that you can have religion for personal reasons, but as a nation, everybody looks at its own interest first rather than a fictional brotherhood.

I think I have explained the first part fairly well. The general usage varies from place to place. Yet the word means what I have described to you.

So you mean that ummah exists just in thoughts of people but when time to action comes they tend to ignore it, don\'t hear about it much when it comes to actions by nations, just some rantings on a board pretty much what the ummah is relegated to.

So do you think the Saudis, the Iraqis, the Tunisians, the Turks, Pakistanis, and many others who have gone to fight in Bosnia, Iraq and in Afghanistan do so out of any consideration aside from their concern for the ummah? The Muslim street understands the concept of ummah fairly well. The leaderships of most countries and the secular elite do not think along these lines. Thus no action at the state level, yet plenty goes around in the background. I know of things done for Bosnians by the GoP and many other Muslims countries at the state level than most are aware of. So lets not assume that there is no action. It is a measured one that takes into consideration the limitations of each Muslim nation state.

My point was that you can have religion for personal reasons, but as a nation, everybody looks at its own interest first rather than a fictional brotherhood.

Surely, but as much as you may want to believe this phenomena to be fictional, it is a reality in many parts of the Muslim world. What derails Muslims is the idea of nation states. Given the fact that the Muslims are already split up in many nation states, their governments do things which make sense for them, despite the fact that the aspirations of their people may be different.

In any case this issue has also been discussed in many threads in the past. I do not want to derail it from the title of the thread.

 

[A1Kaid]

I think I have explained the first part fairly well. The general usage varies from place to place. Yet the word means what I have described to you.



So do you think the Saudis, the Iraqis, the Tunisians, the Turks, Pakistanis, and many others who have gone to fight in Bosnia, Iraq and in Afghanistan do so out of any consideration aside from their concern for the ummah? The Muslim street understands the concept of ummah fairly well. The leaderships of most countries and the secular elite do not think along these lines. Thus no action at the state level, yet plenty goes around in the background. I know of things done for Bosnians by the GoP and many other Muslims countries at the state level than most are aware of. So lets not assume that there is no action. It is a measured one that takes into consideration the limitations of each Muslim nation state.


Surely, but as much as you may want to believe this phenomena to be fictional, it is a reality in many parts of the Muslim world. What derails Muslims is the idea of nation states. Given the fact that the Muslims are already split up in many nation states, their governments do things which make sense for them, despite the fact that the aspirations of their people may be different.

In any case this issue has also been discussed in many threads in the past. I do not want to derail it from the title of the thread.

A brilliant post blain2 well done.

Though what you post is true and to me the information is of no surprise, nonetheless it was a pleasure to read in the eloquence you projected...

 

[moha199]

Man shouldn't we go beyond this problem?????

 

[moha199]

I mean we are better then that adn we can work together for the good of our people

 

[Nemesis]

Do not quote out of context.He said refugee were the sole reason.Go back and read his post.

But do you honestly think refugee was a big factor than breaking up your enemy?Do not be naive.

Naive? Hardly. What do you think matters more to an Indian, Indian security or matters inside Pakistan? Those refugees constituted an economic burden for India, there is no way we could have continued to feed them, hence we interfered. Hence it was the major reason for Indian interference. Perhaps you shouldnt be so naive to believe that India's sole concern is the breakup of our "enemy".

They were certainly profitable for your politicians and that's what I said.Read and then jump on to reply.

and you have proof of this?

You know i wonder why there is so much anti-India venom spewed by Bangladeshis here. Despite what your signature says, we did help you give your freedom. Nothing to be ashamed about, France helped the US gain its freedom.

BTW I know my history well.Thanks.

Clearly not.

 

[blain2]

To the Indian posters,

Please keep out of this thread. I say this meaning well. This particular thread is for Pakistanis and BDs to discuss what gets in the way of reconciliation.

Indians posting here are mostly taking this off to a different tangent. Please open up another thread to discuss the issues with Indian intervention (I believe we already have quite a few).

I will delete posts which are not in line with the issue on hand. Already we have made multiple posts here just to address the Indian posters on issues which are along different lines than what we would like to discuss here.

Thank you!

 

[blain2]

A brilliant post blain2 well done.

Though what you post is true and to me the information is of no surprise, nonetheless it was a pleasure to read in the eloquence you projected...

Its as most of us see it Kaid. I do not think I am writing anything made up here about how Muslims feel about others and I believe you, me and most others here would agree with this assessment. Actually if I did not feel affinity towards other Muslims, I would not be on this thread trying to push reconciliation between Pak and BD.

 

[soldRoMeo1]

I think I have explained the first part fairly well. The general usage varies from place to place. Yet the word means what I have described to you.



So do you think the Saudis, the Iraqis, the Tunisians, the Turks, Pakistanis, and many others who have gone to fight in Bosnia, Iraq and in Afghanistan do so out of any consideration aside from their concern for the ummah? The Muslim street understands the concept of ummah fairly well. The leaderships of most countries and the secular elite do not think along these lines. Thus no action at the state level, yet plenty goes around in the background. I know of things done for Bosnians by the GoP and many other Muslims countries at the state level than most are aware of. So lets not assume that there is no action. It is a measured one that takes into consideration the limitations of each Muslim nation state.


Surely, but as much as you may want to believe this phenomena to be fictional, it is a reality in many parts of the Muslim world. What derails Muslims is the idea of nation states. Given the fact that the Muslims are already split up in many nation states, their governments do things which make sense for them, despite the fact that the aspirations of their people may be different.

In any case this issue has also been discussed in many threads in the past. I do not want to derail it from the title of the thread.

Would have replied to that but then read the warning...maybe some other day.

 

[leonblack08]

Musharraf's apology is considered as a official statement of Pakistan as he was the CE at that time. About trials; do you want us to try people who have gone to the grave...? Do you want each and every Pakistani to come and say sorry to Bangladesh for what happened? Agreed atrocities were committed; but isn't forgiving the others fault the way to go as we are muslims?

See the history of islam; at the battle of karbala; Zainul Abideen AS (son of Hussain AS) gave water to hurmala who had killed Ali Asghar AS with a spear. Why is that sense of forgiveness missing amongst muslims?

First of all thanks brother for at least agreeing on the fact.

Secondly,when I talk about forgiveness with my fellow Bangladeshis,I try to use Islam as our guide.But then a frequent question which comes to me is,"Did you lose anyone in 1971?"---I say no I didn't.Then they say you won't understand.And they are right.

Now at this moment when people are demanding for an official apology,probably something solid,not just speech,I think if Pakistan do that,then relation will improve a lot.Now Pakistan can also follow Islam in this regard as asking for forgiveness does not make one small instead it makes him more respectable.

I would say most BD people would not mind reestablishing better relation with Pakistan after the apology.There will still be people with hard line stance but their number will be too small to stir any problem.

 

[leonblack08]

As you say.

The main reason for india joining the war was the refugees which were pouring into the india from bangladesh which put great strain on the economy.

Breaking up pakistan for strategic reasons was a secondary motive only

But ofcourse you won't beleive that cause you are too dogmatic and would rather believe some crap
conspiracy theory rather than some rational explanation

India were receiving aids from around the world for those refugees.Which helped make your politicians richer,which is so typical of our sub continent.That might be shown as prime reason for India to attack,but that certainly was not it.

Imagine Pakistan still existed and it had two strong army,with nuclear power, on two wings.With China above and all sort of insurgents around,it would not be safe to be on India.

I mean don't you see your military positions?Until recently you had no strong air presence on the eastern wing.Your best tank regiment are based on west.Imagine Pakistan still existed,how much it would have cost India to build up same presence on the eastern wing?

You are talking exactly what you read in your history books.Come outside and try to read from different perspective.And I am not following any conspiracy theory,its the fact.India did not help us out of love and we did not ask help out of love.You had your interest and we had ours,so it was a clear cut deal.

You can still believe whatever you were fed by textbooks,but remember this that you are far from the truth.

Sorry Blain2 for going off topic but this should be addressed.

 

[Al-zakir]

First of all thanks brother for at least agreeing on the fact.

Secondly,when I talk about forgiveness with my fellow Bangladeshis,I try to use Islam as our guide.But then a frequent question which comes to me is,"Did you lose anyone in 1971?"---I say no I didn't.Then they say you won't understand.And they are right.

Now at this moment when people are demanding for an official apology,probably something solid,not just speech,I think if Pakistan do that,then relation will improve a lot.Now Pakistan can also follow Islam in this regard as asking for forgiveness does not make one small instead it makes him more respectable.

I would say most BD people would not mind reestablishing better relation with Pakistan after the apology.There will still be people with hard line stance but their number will be too small to stir any problem.

Leo, has it ever occurred to you?
Why do we care when some bad news comes out from Pakistan or Why do we support Pakistan cricket team over India when logically it should be other way around?

Bd's relation with Pakistan is already warmer and brotherly than with India and it's improving year after year which mean connection still there. Our foreign policy almost identical.

Pakistan also can ask bd to apology for inviting enemy to break united Pakistan however they aren't asking it because they rather forget the past and build a stronger relation with bd. Many Pakistani still consider bd is integral part of Pakistan in indirect way. I think we can not be stubborn and asking for one sided apology as we were all saint.

Let us compromise and find a middle ground. Let us new generation build strong and prosperous Islamic empire that our forefather dream about. Insh'Allah we could do it, if we just give it a try.

What say bro?

P.S: Ignore Indian members in this thread as requested by Blain2. Let us pak-bd's fight, take some steam out, settle our difference and than shake hand like brothers......

 

[TopCat]

India were receiving aids from around the world for those refugees.Which helped make your politicians richer,which is so typical of our sub continent.That might be shown as prime reason for India to attack,but that certainly was not it.

Well a lot of people helped us in that struggle. Even US congress diverted 250 mln military assistance of Pakistan to the refugee of East Pakistan. That does not mean that India did not spend nothing from their own pocket. Even they printed 5 paisa postal stamps for the cause of Bangladeshi refugee (small gesture but big implication). Ordinary people in Calcutta raised fund walking door to door. On top of everything 10 mln people found a shelter to run away from their death in India.

 

[leonblack08]

Well a lot of people helped us in that struggle. Even US congress diverted 250 mln military assistance of Pakistan to the refugee of East Pakistan. That does not mean that India did not spend nothing from their own pocket. Even they printed 5 paisa postal stamps for the cause of Bangladeshi refugee (small gesture but big implication). Ordinary people in Calcutta raised fund walking door to door. On top of everything 10 mln people found a shelter to run away from their death in India.

I know that.But certainly the refugee factor was not the main reason for Indian intervention.

 

[TopCat]

I know that.But certainly the refugee factor was not the main reason for Indian intervention.

It was the overwhelming freedom fighter who made India to accept that Bangladesh could be a reality. India first started to support FF only to destabilize Pakistan but later they had to get involved.
Again India was too afraid that if BD could sustain as a country the other states of India could get interested as well.