Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Khagan1923]

https://twitter.com/x/status/989465516136894465

They still have to hold contract talks. 18 months is a dream which won't come true. 26 months is more likely. If they hadn't delayed it for 2 years we could have had the first Altays running around this time but thats history

 

[Adıvar]

We, at least i, are not fan of any company.

What we say is, giving the project to a company with only 25% Turkish share despite we have a 100% Turkish company who manufactered the samples already in use for more than 2 years and proved itself can not be explained by logic.

This is not a R&D project. This is a mass production of the first batch.

If the German partner of BMC promise/guarantie to give technical support to develop the engine needed for Altay, so SSM awarded them for this particular reason, then i can accept their choise.

Otherwise, it is a betray to Turkish Nation. Clearly CORRUPTION.
We all know who owns 50% of BMC...

 

[-------]

We, at least i, are not fan of any company.

 

[-SINAN-]

AFAIK, the factory has already been established as there were rumours circulating in Sakarya region going back 12 months ago... So it would been completed.

Nope, they were supposed to lay the foundation at 15 April 2018 but postponed.

http://www.adatavir.com/bmc-karasu-acilis-tarihi-ertelendi.html

 

[Adıvar]

Nope, they were supposed to lay the foundation at 15 April 2018 but postponed.

http://www.adatavir.com/bmc-karasu-acilis-tarihi-ertelendi.html

This mean BMC has no factory yet for Altay production ?

 

[-SINAN-]

This mean BMC has no factory yet for Altay production ?

You can look up to Ethem Sancak's statements in the internet. He plans to use the factory in Izmir for civilian production and plans to build a new factory in Sakarya Karasu for defense industry production.

 

[dBSPL]

Otokar's bid is 20 months for the production of the first Altay tank after signing. But for many, this process could have been as long as 24 to 36 months (because of Akkor , etc).

Otokar does not have a production band ready for MBT.

In addition, many of Otokar's engineers already go to BMC.

 

[Adıvar]

Otokar's bid is 20 months for the production of the first Altay tank after signing. But for many, this process could have been as long as 24 to 36 months (because of Akkor , etc).

Otokar does not have a production band ready for MBT.

In addition, many of Otokar's engineers already go to BMC.

Who manufactured the prototypes of which we watch in youtube?

Yes, prototype may not mean readyness for mass production but still more ready than anyone else with ZERO assembly line...

You can look up to Ethem Sancak's statements in the internet. He plans to use the factory in Izmir for civilian production and plans to build a new factory in Sakarya Karasu for defense industry production.

"Karasu'da savunma sanayiine hizmet verecek BMC'nin kurduğu 4 fabrikanın temel atma töreni 15 Nisan 2018 tarihinde gerçekleşecekti. "

Yes, i have read this but i thought they might/should have had a factory for MBT somewhere else since they "won" the tender..


I did not know they had nothing...
Disgusting.

 

[azyr]

Who manufactured the prototypes of which we watch in youtube?
Yes, prototype may not mean readyness for mass production but still more ready than anyone else with ZERO assembly line...

There is close to zero correlation between producing prototypes and creating an assembly line. By your own definition are we to call all companies that entered the tender "disgusting" because they didn't pour money into factories that may not even be used?

Should they all have built assembly lines "just in case"? Who would pay for the loss when they failed to win any tenders for the tank?

You're singling out BMC because they don't have a factory ready to start production but neither do the other companies. @dBSPL said Otokar was looking at 20 to 36 months for the first tank to roll off the assembly line. With that information we can extrapolate that 2 years is an expected amount of time for the first tank to be finished.

I have no love for BMC and I think they've been "awarded" this contract. BUT I have no love for Otokar either (who hasn't lifted a finger without being paid for. I'm not sure why anything Otokar says get's a pass when BMC is being held at gunpoint.

They're all capitalist greedy as F. assholes - none of these guys are your friends and none of them are working for "patriotic" reasons. Don't be a fan (well maybe except VESTEL and Baykar and a few smaller ones - definitely not FNSS or Otokar and BMC).

 

[dBSPL]

@Adıvar , Altay is Otokar's first tracked armoured vehicle project. There was no experience before that.

Beyond that, motor and transmission, all electronic and almost all mechanical systems, chassis design and tracked systems, weapons and countermeasures systems, all optical systems; delivered from subcontractors. Otokar was prototype integrator as a main contractor . All coordination provided by SSM ( including all purchases ) Otokar was the center for the execution of the test process(from TSK) and for the elimination of deficiencies that occurred in this process. Also prototype production and mass production are very different subjects. You do not care about manufacturing engineering, but the subject is not only the vehicle itself, also the production system within the specified costs.And they probably also offered to take overseas support in this area.

Personally, I wanted Otokar to take this tender. But our approach to the subject is different.

PS: Defense Industry Undersecretary: After signing mass production deal, the calendar for the first mass production tank is 18 months.

In this case, BMC gave approximately the same bid as Otokar by time interval. Lower costs are possible. Still, system integration is still a serious problem.

https://twitter.com/x/status/989436387073064961

 

[Adıvar]

@azyr
"I have no love for BMC and I think they've been "awarded" this contract."
Good to hear this.

I am not in love with Otokar either. Why would i?

What i hate about what the SSM has done is;

(repeating myself)

ALTAY design is ready. CNC/CAM files, quality test procedures etc. everything is ready and done before by Otokar.

They gave the project to a company with 25% Turkish share instead of 100% one.
That means, 75% of the profit will go out of Turkey into Hans' pocket when we have chance to give all to Mehmet.

They know this. But It looks a "love affair".. a forbidden love..

@Adıvar , Altay is Otokar's first tracked armoured vehicle project. There was no experience before that.

Beyond that, motor and transmission, all electronic and almost all mechanical systems, chassis design and tracked systems, weapons and countermeasures systems, all optical systems; delivered from subcontractors. Otokar was prototype integrator as a main contractor . All coordination provided by SSM ( including all purchases ) Otokar was the center for the execution of the test process(from TSK) and for the elimination of deficiencies that occurred in this process. Also prototype production and mass production are very different subjects. You do not care about manufacturing engineering, but the subject is not only the vehicle itself, also the production system within the specified costs.And they probably also offered to take overseas support in this area.

Personally, I wanted Otokar to take this tender. But our approach to the subject is different.

PS: Defense Industry Undersecretary: After signing mass production deal, the calendar for the first mass production tank is 18 months.

In this case, BMC gave approximately the same bid as Otokar by time interval. Lower costs are possible. Still, system integration is still a serious problem.

https://twitter.com/x/status/989436387073064961

Ok. Lets assume it was a price matter. (we dont know about this)

Assume again:

A is national.
B is foreign.

A's price is 2 TL
B's price is 1 TL

Both A and B are equal in terms of technologic infrastructure and conditions.

Who would you prefer to buy from?

Otokar does not have a production band ready for MBT.

In addition, many of Otokar's engineers already go to BMC.

There is also another point. The quantity to be produced is 250 as far as i know. If so, it does not look too many, maybe the same systems used for the prototypes are enough to go with for this little amount. Not sure about this. Just reasoning...

What is your source to the engineers left Otokar and went to BMC?

 

[dBSPL]

In addition, the Altay chassis developed at the Otokar facilities was largely thanks to the support of the Hyundai Rotem (Koreans also received German support for their mbt project). In our project, problems experienced during the process were solved through over Leopard2 chasis.

@azyr
They gave the project to a company with 25% Turkish share instead of 100% one.
That means, 75% of the profit will go out of Turkey into Hans' pocket when we have chance to give all to Mehmet.

BMC %51 Turkish .
Possible sub contractors: RBSS %51 Turkish (as a system integrator), Aselsan , Mtu German(engine-transmision) and 2nd batch's engine packs by BMC , Otokar, Fnss %51, MKE ( Rheinmetal's L55) , Roketsan .

 

[Saithan]

An example from construction projects. to illustrate why it would make sense to let Otokar build it, and also why it would be better to let someone else build it.

When you want to develop and build houses, you first hire technical advisor who'll work on the scoop of the project and do the fundamental research of the soil etc. once that has been done, and the advisor has described the project in details according to customer wishes, and has all the technical reports etc. you make a tender to find the best architech+engineering company to do the detailed description with in depth work. Now the first advisor you hire is pretty much disqualified because of "insider" knowledge of the survey's, report's etc. because it gives an unfair advantage compared to others. Basically because we still do not trust the first advisor shared all information hoping that they may come into the project one way or another.

I think the above mentioned example could be applied to Otokar in this case. SSM assume that Otokar has shared all the information they've gained or not, but they've picked someone else to make the Tanks.

However with the funding in their back BMC will probably go headhunting for all the engineers involved in the Altay prototype. And pay them a fortune to help build the Tanks.

Also I'd buy from B for 1 TL, becuase 51% of it would still stay in Turkey, and I'd avoid having to pay 100% more than necessary.

 

[Adıvar]

Also I'd buy from B for 1 TL, becuase 51% of it would still stay in Turkey, and I'd avoid having to pay 100% more than necessary.

Think through this window:

When you buy from foreign B, it is 0.5 TL to stay in Turkey. The other half will go to Merkel.(Actually 75% will leave Turkey. If take Qatar and Rheinmetall real shares into account)

When you buy from national A, it is all to stay in Turkey. Regardless of how much you pay.

 

[Nart]

...As long as BMC is the one who gave the lovest price offer...

They didn't. I posted it before right after SSİK. Otokar gave the best BAFO.