Abandoning status as "Islamic Republic"

[Hell hound]

End the involvement in America's WoT then I guarantee you terrorism will end.

these ttp and isis monster will still be here.what about the power of manipulative mullahs like mullah burka (abdul aziz) and fazlul rehman how are we going to end the mullah regime and their unchallenged control on illiterates masses of Pakistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

I think we should if not adopt secularism then sit and atleast talk about it. Discuss it. Allama Iqbal attributed the fall of the muslim ummah to the end of Ijtehad, a concept where scholars, intellectuals and governors sat together and discussed various topics. No one would assume his views to be superior to the others. They would start the topic with "Ï may be wrong"... now just imagine todays self righteous mullahs admitting ever they may be wrong. They thinbk they are caliphas and anyone disagreeing with them gets beaten up or death threats.

Imagine people like Muhammed Farooq Khan not being assassinated and Ghamidi staying peacefully at home. These are the modern scholars of Pakistan I truly admire. They are atleast open to secularism and do not like others declare other sects kaffir. Secularism does not mean end of Islam in the country completely. Those who think this way are both insecure and do not know the secular history of Islam as a religion and Jinnah's secular beliefs from the start..

these ttp and isis monster will still be here.what about the power manipulative mullahs like mullah burka (abdul aziz) and fazlul rehman how are we going to end the mullah regime and their unchallenged control on illiterates masses of Pakistan.

I agree. Bombings still occured before war on terror, though not so common. I do believe we should pull away from US but leaving fanatics and not fighting their ideology is not a solution. We need to build a tolerant, egalitarian state where people respect each other.

 

[mikkix]

I think we should if not adopt secularism then sit and atleast talk about it. Discuss it. Allama Iqbal attributed the fall of the muslim ummah to the end of Ijtehad, a concept where scholars, intellectuals and governors sat together and discussed various topics. No one would assume his views to be superior to the others. They would start the topic with "Ï may be wrong"... now just imagine todays self righteous mullahs admitting ever they may be wrong. They thinbk they are caliphas and anyone disagreeing with them gets beaten up or death threats.

Imagine people like Muhammed Farooq Khan not being assassinated and Ghamidi staying peacefully at home. These are the modern scholars of Pakistan I truly admire. They are atleast open to secularism and do not like others declare other sects kaffir. Secularism does not mean end of Islam in the country completely. Those who think this way are both insecure and do not know the secular history of Islam as a religion and Jinnah's secular beliefs from the start..


I agree. Bombings still occured before war on terror, though not so common. I do believe we should pull away from US but leaving fanatics and not fighting their ideology is not a solution. We need to build a tolerant, egalitarian state where people respect each other.

Can you point out some brief points which Pakistan must adopt under a secular state which Pakistan wont under islamic republic?
How does these points or law helps to enables us to counter current issues?
Which islamic laws have some loopholes and cant be implemented in this world?
Plz shed some light on it.

 

[haviZsultan]

Can you point out some brief points which Pakistan must adopt under a secular state which Pakistan wont under islamic republic?
How does these points or law helps to enables us to counter current issues?
Which islamic laws have some loopholes and cant be implemented in this world?
Plz shed some light on it.

1) Freedom of religion for all, including minorities
2) Equal treatment of all citizens regardless of religion
3) More conversions as people will see the guiding light of Islam through peace-not through the barrel of the gun.
4) Less confusion. Today the question begged is as there is no consensus whos Islam should we implement, the shias, the ahmedis, the hanafis, wahabis? Who?
5) No spending of state resources on useless things-like a ministry of Islamic affairs. Where such a ministry exists the nation forgets instead of imposing religion its real job is to govern.

Secularism, when it became the system in Turkey, Ireland and Spain it led to great enlightenment. They were able to get rid of oppressive laws made from the incorrect interpretation of religion.

 

[Hell hound]

I think we should if not adopt secularism then sit and atleast talk about it. Discuss it. Allama Iqbal attributed the fall of the muslim ummah to the end of Ijtehad, a concept where scholars, intellectuals and governors sat together and discussed various topics. No one would assume his views to be superior to the others. They would start the topic with "Ï may be wrong"... now just imagine todays self righteous mullahs admitting ever they may be wrong. They thinbk they are caliphas and anyone disagreeing with them gets beaten up or death threats.

Imagine people like Muhammed Farooq Khan not being assassinated and Ghamidi staying peacefully at home. These are the modern scholars of Pakistan I truly admire. They are atleast open to secularism and do not like others declare other sects kaffir. Secularism does not mean end of Islam in the country completely. Those who think this way are both insecure and do not know the secular history of Islam as a religion and Jinnah's secular beliefs from the start..


I agree. Bombings still occured before war on terror, though not so common. I do believe we should pull away from US but leaving fanatics and not fighting their ideology is not a solution. We need to build a tolerant, egalitarian state where people respect each other.

common pakistan and masjid ka mullah thinks that after implementing secular system in Pakistan government will ban every religious activity,will force girls to remove their hijjabs and wear skirts, alcohol and ham will be pushed down their throats.
these are the misconception that we need clear if we want to implement secular system in Pakistan. we need to make it clear that secular system will not force anything on you but it also will not let you force your views and ideologies on any one. those dark day of forcing your fellow country men or being forced by them will be gone.

 

[mikkix]

1) Freedom of religion for all, including minorities
2) Equal treatment of all citizens regardless of religion
3) More conversions as people will see the guiding light of Islam through peace-not through the barrel of the gun.
4) Less confusion. Today the question begged is as there is no consensus whos Islam should we implement, the shias, the ahmedis, the hanafis, wahabis? Who?
5) No spending of state resources on useless things-like a ministry of Islamic affairs. Where such a ministry exists the nation forgets instead of imposing religion its real job is to govern.

Secularism, when it became the system in Turkey, Ireland and Spain it led to great enlightenment. They were able to get rid of oppressive laws made from the incorrect interpretation of religion.

Equal rights to all is great but Islam allows to follow what you want to. Muslims pays zakat and non muslims pays jaziya so 2 names and one agenda. To pay the taxes to the government.
When islam stops non muslims to not offer their prayers or not performing their religious duties. Plz go to interior sindh where hindu brothers freely perform their sacred duties. If someone stops then it is the problem of rule and law which will be there too in secular state because no one wants to implement it.
Islamic state doesnt need conversions and I dont know why you are asking for conversions when you advocating a secular state. In that case you are thinking similar to somewhat like missionaries.
There is no confusion in Islamic state about the law. Shias and sunnis and others have 95% same laws like killing of people, doing corruption, social injustice, rape, murder, terrorism, e.t.c (you can point out the major difference which islamic law cant serve where secular law can)
Religious ministry is there because a common Pakistan doesnt know islam well. When islamic law states that it must have a religious ministry? Can you quote one example where any imam or khalifa has any religious ministry?
Secularism doesnt help turkey or others but good education system, speedy justice, economic progress, mass industrialization helps to built a productive society and allows people to think positively and attain tolerance.
Good society does not represents secularism but secularism tries to take claim of it.

 

[The Sandman]

Haha so true hypocrites first watch item songs then speak against them

 

[Hell hound]

tu nahi shudhray ga

 

[Zibago]

Most Pakistanis are like this

 

[The Sandman]

tu nahi shudhray ga

Most Pakistanis are like this

Ye bechara to zaleel hii hogya hai

 

[haviZsultan]

Equal rights to all is great but Islam allows to follow what you want to. Muslims pays zakat and non muslims pays jaziya so 2 names and one agenda. To pay the taxes to the government.
When islam stops non muslims to not offer their prayers or not performing their religious duties. Plz go to interior sindh where hindu brothers freely perform their sacred duties. If someone stops then it is the problem of rule and law which will be there too in secular state because no one wants to implement it.
Islamic state doesnt need conversions and I dont know why you are asking for conversions when you advocating a secular state. In that case you are thinking similar to somewhat like missionaries.
There is no confusion in Islamic state about the law. Shias and sunnis and others have 95% same laws like killing of people, doing corruption, social injustice, rape, murder, terrorism, e.t.c (you can point out the major difference which islamic law cant serve where secular law can)
Religious ministry is there because a common Pakistan doesnt know islam well. When islamic law states that it must have a religious ministry? Can you quote one example where any imam or khalifa has any religious ministry?
Secularism doesnt help turkey or others but good education system, speedy justice, economic progress, mass industrialization helps to built a productive society and allows people to think positively and attain tolerance.
Good society does not represents secularism but secularism tries to take claim of it.

You are avoiding a basic problem. When mullahs can't come to agreement on basic things like whether beard is compulsory for men or hijab for women then how can these mullahs come to agreement over shia-sunni, wahabi-mutazilite among others. There is no way to impose Islam without slamming our boot on the ideology belief and thinking of another sect and Islamic school of thought.

Further the idea of imposing Islamic law on Pakistan may backfire when real scholars like Ghamidi are kicked out of the country and people like Muhammed Farooq Khan killed. These are perhaps the only few moderates and they are marginalized by the vocal conservative majority.

I am not arguing against Islam here, but for original Islam which was completely secular.

Come on. Who are you kidding. If you go check the Balochistan and KPK assemblies and to an extent each and every elected representative of the people is a mullah-JI even had a minister who had sent a son and many others to fight in Afghanistan. In FATA other than mullahs you can vote for nobody.

The actual existence of a ministry for Islamic affairs shows that the rulers are more interested in dictating how a person lives his life or on imposing Islam rather than promoting merit, equality and freedom. Is there a similar ministry for our Christian brothers? Are hindus given funds to go on yatra as some muslims are to go on Hajj?

The system is unfair. Hazrat Umer refused to pray at a church in fear it would be turned into a mosque. This was the ultimate respect our ancestors gave to non muslims.

These are some useful resources I use promoting secularism for muslims:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/akbar-ganji/secularism-islam-islamic-state_b_6426300.html

common pakistan and masjid ka mullah thinks that after implementing secular system in Pakistan government will ban every religious activity,will force girls to remove their hijjabs and wear skirts, alcohol and ham will be pushed down their throats.
these are the misconception that we need clear if we want to implement secular system in Pakistan. we need to make it clear that secular system will not force anything on you but it also will not let you force your views and ideologies on any one. those dark day of forcing your fellow country men or being forced by them will be gone.

I agree. Tajikistan banned Hijab and beards, that is not secularism. Somalia banned christmas as did brunei. That is not secularism either. Secularism is the middle path and the promoted equality of all citizens of a state as one. Such a system was promoted by Allama Iqbal too:

“The religious doctors of Islam in Egypt and India, as far as I know, have not yet expressed themselves on this point. Personally, I find the Turkish view is perfectly sound.”

“The republican form of government is not only thoroughly consistent with the spirit of Islam, but has also become a necessity in view of the new forces that were set free in the world of Islam.”

 

[Sinnerman108]

Secularism in itself doesn't solve any problem however it doesn't allow many other problems such as Mullahs and Taliban from existing.

Running a country is just that; secularism allows you perform that job for the sake of that job.

Islam never has provided any model of country or governance AT ALL.

thus it is best to leave Islam as a religion and move forward in life.

 

[Hell hound]

You are avoiding a basic problem. When mullahs can't come to agreement on basic things like whether beard is compulsory for men or hijab for women then how can these mullahs come to agreement over shia-sunni, wahabi-mutazilite among others. There is no way to impose Islam without slamming our boot on the ideology belief and thinking of another sect and Islamic school of thought.

Further the idea of imposing Islamic law on Pakistan may backfire when real scholars like Ghamidi are kicked out of the country and people like Muhammed Farooq Khan killed. These are perhaps the only few moderates and they are marginalized by the vocal conservative majority.

I am not arguing against Islam here, but for original Islam which was completely secular.

Come on. Who are you kidding. If you go check the Balochistan and KPK assemblies and to an extent each and every elected representative of the people is a mullah-JI even had a minister who had sent a son and many others to fight in Afghanistan. In FATA other than mullahs you can vote for nobody.

The actual existence of a ministry for Islamic affairs shows that the rulers are more interested in dictating how a person lives his life or on imposing Islam rather than promoting merit, equality and freedom. Is there a similar ministry for our Christian brothers? Are hindus given funds to go on yatra as some muslims are to go on Hajj?

The system is unfair. Hazrat Umer refused to pray at a church in fear it would be turned into a mosque. This was the ultimate respect our ancestors gave to non muslims.

These are some useful resources I use promoting secularism for muslims:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/akbar-ganji/secularism-islam-islamic-state_b_6426300.html



I agree. Tajikistan banned Hijab and beards, that is not secularism. Somalia banned christmas as did brunei. That is not secularism either. Secularism is the middle path and the promoted equality of all citizens of a state as one. Such a system was promoted by Allama Iqbal too:

“The religious doctors of Islam in Egypt and India, as far as I know, have not yet expressed themselves on this point. Personally, I find the Turkish view is perfectly sound.”

“The republican form of government is not only thoroughly consistent with the spirit of Islam, but has also become a necessity in view of the new forces that were set free in the world of Islam.”

but the main question is are these mullahs going to digest the secular system?they surely will cause mass riots and killing.

 

[khanmubashir]

Maybe it is time to abandon our status as the "Islamic" "Republic" of Pakistan, and return to our secular roots which were planned by the fathers of the nation. Not a literal name change, but Pakistani people need to abandon the "Islamic Republic" ideology. Pakistan was created because Jinnah and co were afraid that in a Hindu dominated Country, there would always be episodes of violence and disagreement between the two chief religions, as Muslims of India had grown to become an almost different culture. Thus Pakistan was created so that the Muslims and Hindus can live in peace alone. Pakistan was created because the Muslim League felt the new "Hindus"tan would not be secular enough, not because it wouldn't be "Islamic" enough. Do we want to end up like the Middle East?

Also, it is embarrassing how many people believe in ridiculously stupid Jewish conspiracy theories, and hate Jews so much without having ever having seen one in their entire lives. Can a mature, mentally healthy human being actually believe such far fetched stories? Is this the result of one or two generations of cousin-cousin breeding? The reality is every year hundreds, if not thousands of non-Muslims are persecuted and harassed all along the country, but our sympathies are only for Palestine and non-existent dead Muslims in Burma and India. Isn't it ridiculous how people in Pakistan want women to "cover" themselves up, yet Google confirms the most number of pornographic searches are from Pakistan. Google also confirms that South Asia ranks the highest in bestiality searches.

Now people are going to be blame me for having such a negative view of my home country, but I am telling the truth, and even if the truth is not something that was told to us through biased text books. Media doesn't report such incidents because they are more focused on who Imran Khan wants to sleep with, and they don't have time for a family of murdered Ahmaids, Shias, Chrisitans, Hindus, etc. But of course it is all Mossad's, RAW's and CIA's fault, because they have so much time and resources to waste on us. (Well, RAW is an exception I guess. They all have the time in the world for their little Eastern Sibling)


P.S Removing it won't really affect the economical or the political situation. It would improve the social condition.

(NON PAKISTANIS KINDLY DON'T VOTE ON THE POLL)

 

[haviZsultan]

but the main question is are these mullahs going to digest the secular system?they surely will cause mass riots and killing.

Violence has become a tool in the hands of Islamists. Qadri was treated like a hero by these same people just because someone questioned a man made law called the blasphemy law. The mullahs need an excuse to let loose their vitriolic side. Their rigid ways, their refusal to even acknowledge let alone respect different ways philosophies and beliefs and their haughty arrogance in their belief of correctness are the primary reason for the downfall of Islamic society.

When the purpose is to promote religious morality instead of merit, equality and good governance then the problems we find ourselves in may never disappear. On the other hand heroes of the ummah like Ibn Rushd are demonized as are the Muta'zilites. Our secular history has been burned, destroyed and utterly ravaged by orthodoxy, strong headedness and very typical unthinking wahabism where any person, without any excuse can be labelled an infidel. We are locked on the length of my shalwar's paicha, little things... yet we refuse to look at how far the world has left us behind. I can only pray for the muslim ummah. For as a secularist I want what is best for Islam, Pakistan and the ummah.