A Take On Communal Violence In India

[Joe Shearer]

You have caught on to it too eh?



Actually gujjus and also lot of orthodox brahmins (I can vouch for my family) traditionally eschew onion/garlic and even brinjal too on certain days (my great grandmom followed this rule from her family apparently....it did not really permeate in ours though).

Basically in addition to what you describe there is some jain influence in there being lot of layers and seeds in certain plants.

In fact there is a popular story within our family regarding my great grandpa finally relenting his extreme satvik following (he was purohit for profession) in later years of his life....and asking "to hell with it, please order me a full nice masala dosai (onions, garlic and all)".

LOLOL.

Ooh, for a vadyar to stoop to conquer.....

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Regarding "dowry", Muslim men pay the families of Muslim females, which I believe is the exact opposite of Hindu interpretation of dowry. I'm no authority but that is what I had to do as per imam's instruction. So assuming that is the rule, I can't see how you can draw any comparison.

Maher (dowry) is given by the groom to the wife directly. It is her money alone. When she accepts and verbally acknowledges it, with 2 witnesses, they are married.

Meri jaan, nothing is simple. You don't know what people went through in 1947. My dada hid my dadi in a box in their train while migrating to Pakistan. They saw people getting murdered in front of them. But it's their efforts that bore fruit that I am sitting here in Pakistan without fear Alhumdulilah. May Allah bless them. You guys will have to act up sometime or the other

Sorry to hear about your families' difficult times. I am glad, brother, you are in Pakistan today.

My family had similar circumstances when we traveled by foot from the border of Kashmir to Pakistan, dodging Sikh and Hindu militias the way there. Women were locked in heavy metal drums, which were pulled by cattle.

They had to stop every once in a while to allow them to breath. There is little food or water the whole way there.

May Allah swt bless our bozorg.

I know a Gujarati Hindu girl based in the UK. She married a Pakistani, and told me he converted to vegetarianism for her. So, definitely exceptions exist among Pakistan.
That would be very funny though.

He does it for her because he loves her.

However in Islam, there is no place for vegetarianism because of the ideology behind it. Quran says many times that animals are made for consumption, and qurbani (animal slaughter) is mandatory on males (although many pay another to do it.)

He doesn't know the proper reason. According to ayurveda there are three types of foods

1. Satvik (Food of the Brahmins) Fruits from upper part of tree, milk and milk by products come under this this type of food is good for scholars as it won't create anxiety or tension in body.

2. Rajasik( Food of the warriors) Intoxicating drinks , nerve stimulating drinks come under this .

3. Tamasik( Food of the lower castes) Meat, food of underground( tubers, onion , garlic),hard drinks these foods bring negative character in humans.

I hear different things from different Hindus, so I don't know what to believe. They hardly agree on anything, even number of gods or if any god exists.

One college professor in the religion department was asked what a Hindu was by one of our MSA guys. She, a Hindu, said "Anyone from the Indian subcontinent who is not Muslim or Christian."

That is a very broad category of people.

 

[Cliftonite]

So is that how you guys treat your minority brothers- No one in India says that everything is great or

Maher (dowry) is given by the groom to the wife directly. It is her money alone. When she accepts and verbally acknowledges it, with 2 witnesses, they are married.



Sorry to hear about your families' difficult times. I am glad, brother, you are in Pakistan today.

My family had similar circumstances when we traveled by foot from the border of Kashmir to Pakistan, dodging Sikh and Hindu militias the way there. Women were locked in heavy metal drums, which were pulled by cattle.

They had to stop every once in a while to allow them to breath. There is little food or water the whole way there.

May Allah swt bless our bozorg.





I hear different things from different Hindus, so I don't know what to believe. They hardly agree on anything, even number of gods or if any god exists.

One college professor in the religion department was asked what a Hindu was by one of our MSA guys. She, a Hindu, said "Anyone from the Indian subcontinent who is not Muslim or Christian."

That is a very broad category of people.

Thank you brother. May Allah bless our elders and may Allah protect our nation. Bohot qurbaaniyon ke baad mila hai

 

[Shantanu_Left]

My family had similar circumstances when we traveled by foot from the border of Kashmir to Pakistan, dodging Sikh and Hindu militias the way there. Women were locked in heavy metal drums, which were pulled by cattle.

I have heard many first person accounts: the Dogras under Hari Singh were very cruel and barbaric towards the Muslims forced to migrate to Pakistan. By some accounts, 70000 were killed on the route to Pakistan.

Glad your family made it. There were at least 70000 in that region who couldn't make it.

While the Partition was inevitable, this disaster could have been avoided. But noone really foresaw so much communal violence on both sides.

My only explanation is that it was 1947: hardly any telephones, no television, not enough police. With such poor communication, rumour mills spread everywhere. It's never good when local chieftains and bandits become the lawkeepers. And people showed that given circumstances, they are actually no better than animals.

He does it for her because he loves her.

However in Islam, there is no place for vegetarianism because of the ideology behind it. Quran says many times that animals are made for consumption, and qurbani (animal slaughter) is mandatory on males (although many pay another to do it.)
.

She was friends with me in college. It's been many years, and we only spoke on Facebook a few times. Not in at least last 3-4 years.

I don't know how they operate together but I didn't ask too many details.

Good for them. I think most people in mixed relationships do a lot of adjustment so it might not be an issue. Plus that vegetarian thing which she told might not be entirely true...who knows

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

Maher (dowry) is given by the groom to the wife directly. It is her money alone. When she accepts and verbally acknowledges it, with 2 witnesses, they are married.



Sorry to hear about your families' difficult times. I am glad, brother, you are in Pakistan today.

My family had similar circumstances when we traveled by foot from the border of Kashmir to Pakistan, dodging Sikh and Hindu militias the way there. Women were locked in heavy metal drums, which were pulled by cattle.

They had to stop every once in a while to allow them to breath. There is little food or water the whole way there.

May Allah swt bless our bozorg.



He does it for her because he loves her.

However in Islam, there is no place for vegetarianism because of the ideology behind it. Quran says many times that animals are made for consumption, and qurbani (animal slaughter) is mandatory on males (although many pay another to do it.)



I hear different things from different Hindus, so I don't know what to believe. They hardly agree on anything, even number of gods or if any god exists.

One college professor in the religion department was asked what a Hindu was by one of our MSA guys. She, a Hindu, said "Anyone from the Indian subcontinent who is not Muslim or Christian."

That is a very broad category of people.

Partition is hard for everyone If leaders of that time would have understood this much bloodshed would have been averted and we would not have seen such scenarios like this.

Quran said we can eat meat that doesn't mean it is obligatory for everyone to eat. It is allowed doesn't mean we must eat it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Maher (dowry) is given by the groom to the wife directly. It is her money alone. When she accepts and verbally acknowledges it, with 2 witnesses, they are married.



Sorry to hear about your families' difficult times. I am glad, brother, you are in Pakistan today.

My family had similar circumstances when we traveled by foot from the border of Kashmir to Pakistan, dodging Sikh and Hindu militias the way there. Women were locked in heavy metal drums, which were pulled by cattle.

They had to stop every once in a while to allow them to breath. There is little food or water the whole way there.

May Allah swt bless our bozorg.



He does it for her because he loves her.

However in Islam, there is no place for vegetarianism because of the ideology behind it. Quran says many times that animals are made for consumption, and qurbani (animal slaughter) is mandatory on males (although many pay another to do it.)

I hear different things from different Hindus, so I don't know what to believe. They hardly agree on anything, even number of gods or if any god exists.

One college professor in the religion department was asked what a Hindu was by one of our MSA guys. She, a Hindu, said "Anyone from the Indian subcontinent who is not Muslim or Christian."

That is a very broad category of people.

So now it's official? There is nothing called Hindu.

Such a relief.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Partition is hard for everyone If leaders of that time would have understood this much bloodshed would have been averted and we would not have seen such scenarios like this.

Quran said we can eat meat that doesn't mean it is obligatory for everyone to eat. It is allowed doesn't mean we must eat it.

Muslim league simply wanted their proper land boundaries, which was their right as representatives of Muslims, whom the vast majority of Muslims elected to represent them. Nehru and Gandhi were obsessed with denying Pakistan its legitimate borders.

They even acquiesced to pogroms in Jammu, South Kashmir, East Punjab, and other areas to dispossess Muslims of areas where they formed the majority.

They tried everything to destroy Pakistan, but it did not work.

It is forbidden to refrain from meat for ideological reasons, only for medical ones (gout, etc.) That is because it is a well-established part of Islam and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad saws.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I have heard many first person accounts: the Dogras under Hari Singh were very cruel and barbaric towards the Muslims forced to migrate to Pakistan. By some accounts, 70000 were killed on the route to Pakistan.

Glad your family made it. There were at least 70000 in that region who couldn't make it.

While the Partition was inevitable, this disaster could have been avoided. But noone really foresaw so much communal violence on both sides.

My only explanation is that it was 1947: hardly any telephones, no television, not enough police. With such poor communication, rumour mills spread everywhere. It's never good when local chieftains and bandits become the lawkeepers. And people showed that given circumstances, they are actually no better than animals.

It was asymmetric warfare. Most of the Muslim majority regions took it as granted that they would be part of Pakistan. No one was prepared for the premeditated plan by British and Congress collusion to deny Muslims on the border areas their legitimate rights. Muslims were unarmed and totally defenseless.

My family was in Gurdaspur, Hoshiarpur areas, which are the only land openings to Kashmir, so they sought to deprive Muslims of those areas en route to Kashmir. The target of course was the occupation of Kashmir.

 

[prashantazazel]

Yeah after recent violence everyone is in fear of retaliation. The recent incidents changed everything.However now a days even educated ones dorn burqa or hizab it is a trend now a days not only the poor ones. And recent incidents is accelerating it as earlier people did not give much importance to identity as such and many tends to see it as backward. It started to change with the arrival of Zakir Naik love him or hate him he did have a profound effect of muslims and recent internet boom has made many preachers who teaches religion with reasons and everything has helped also , if it is not for them Islam was eroding drastically and then the current govt happened who made Islamic belief firmer on the people.

I would disagree, this is not true for most places I have been to. Burqas are on a steep decline, and one common demand of Muslim women while marrying, is that the husband doesn't force them to wear a burqa. Some rare rich people who live in ghettos do wear one, but anyone living in mixed areas and actually interacting with other communities would not want to wear one. You will be judged daily.
(hyper religiosity makes you unwanted in most societies. That's a reason you will rarely see any Hindu wearing saffron or applying Tilak, in cities.)
For a working person, you are unlikely to be considered for most private jobs if you wear your faith on your sleeve.

Muslim women - Pune

@jamahir @Naofumi @Cliftonite @Mentee @Mad Scientist 2.0 @prashantazazel

@masterchief_mirza sorry forgot you

They look poor. Poor households tend to be more religious.

 

[vegav]

You have caught on to it too eh?



Actually gujjus and also lot of orthodox brahmins (I can vouch for my family) traditionally eschew onion/garlic and even brinjal too on certain days (my great grandmom followed this rule from her family apparently....it did not really permeate in ours though).

Basically in addition to what you describe there is some jain influence in there being lot of layers and seeds in certain plants.

In fact there is a popular story within our family regarding my great grandpa finally relenting his extreme satvik following (he was purohit for profession) in later years of his life....and asking "to hell with it, please order me a full nice masala dosai (onions, garlic and all)".

I am tambrahm too and I love onion and garlic. But most of the food at home, the south indian one doesn't involve onion and garlic and still tastes very delicious. I also like to go without any such thing because it is vairagya.

Such a catch 22 situation.

Mixed neighbourhoods are good for mutual understanding but they can lead to people becoming easy targets in a riot. Segregated housing though safer during a riot situation, leads to more riots. What to do.

Mixed neighborhood won't have Azaan though.

That is a very good alliance, it should progress further.

Indian Muslims need to make coalitions with other minorities, and even seek Chinese, BD and Pakistan help if necessary.

It ll be disastrous for naxalites to align with muslims. The two ends of the twine don't match.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

It was asymmetric warfare. Most of the Muslim majority regions took it as granted that they would be part of Pakistan. No one was prepared for the premeditated plan by British and Congress collusion to deny Muslims on the border areas their legitimate rights. Muslims were unarmed and totally defenseless.

My family was in Gurdaspur, Hoshiarpur areas, which are the only land openings to Kashmir, so they sought to deprive Muslims of those areas en route to Kashmir. The target of course was the occupation of Kashmir.

Oh so your family were in the border districts. They had no way of knowing which side of the border their lands would remain after Partition, or maybe they were too sanguine they would be part of Pakistan. Many people weren't sure that a Partition would even occur because the proposal for an actual Pakistan was accepted very late. Even until mid 1947, there were plenty of backers of a unified India. It was felt by them that Muslim League proposal for a Pakistan would eventually be defeated. Everyone basically underestimated Mr. Jinnah, but he was very resolute in his demands. And here we are, you have your own country!

Mahatma Gandhi made one of the historical blunders of his life by not stepping out of the scene; all the fasting he did made matters worse (later Nehru pleaded with him to step out of the scene and let him handle it.) He wanted a unified India even though it was no longer a possibility. Gandhi's idealism wasted many crucial months and possibly years, that would have given the families enough time to transfer smoothly. That's why it's not always beneficial to have good people in charge of a crisis. What you need is brinkmanship and level-headed practicality.

However, no one was expecting communal riots on that scale. It was really spontaneous. And as I said, the lack of policing and poor infrastructure/communication in 1947 meant the situation could not be controlled well.

Nehru did not get along that well with Jinnah on a personal level. Had there been more camaraderie between the two, maybe the transfer would have been smoother.

But the real villain of the haphazard Partition were the British authorities in charge. They were apathetic to any potential genocides ("let the brown people kill each other, who cares?"). Cyril Radcliffe only arrived in India on 8 July, 1947. Before his appointment, he had never visited India and knew no one in the country. The British thought that because he was so ignorant, he will be more neutral. But he really behaved like Donald Trump did during the current US Coronavirus crisis. He did not do any field surveys: in fact, the entire Radcliffe line was drawn in just a few hours during afternoon tea. And both Congress and Muslim League representatives were given exactly two hours to study it. After that, Radcliffe submitted his proposal without consulting anyone. And that was on August 9, 1947. He knew there would be a backlash later so he quickly burned all his research papers, and immediately departed India on August 15 itself.

Also, Mountbatten was more sympathetic to Congress cause. Nehru was on very friendly terms with him and his wife, Edwina (many BJP idiots argue that they had an affair but they were just good friends, nothing more. That miserable wretch, Narendra Modi, cannot attract even an ugly woman like this one.). In all fairness, Nehru tried his best to win more territories for the Congress just as Jinnah did for Pakistan. Nehru even wanted Lahore, but Jinnah wrested it away from him. It was really a chess match. There should have been more give and take on behalf of both parties. But Nehru was definitely a strong negotiator on behalf of the Indians. Also he was very patient and could play the long game. Against all odds, he waited until the end of 1948 to resolve Hyderabad and up to 1950 to resolve the Indian side of Kashmir. He waited until 1961 before the Indians could annex Goa from the Portuguese (first time in that slice of history when brown people fought against white people, and won without any contest!).

In hindsight, I think Nehru was too good for today's Indians. Given the current custodians of the country are illiterate mini fascists, they have benefited from the best leader we ever had. They are not worthy of the legacy he created, the India he had built through patience and hard work. Today's generation of Indians should be really getting down on their hands and knees and worship Nehru for his immense and sole contribution in building this nation. But instead his legacy is being befouled by the ingrates affiliated to the BJP/RSS.

Lastly I must say that the human toll of the tragedy was too much. While Pandit Nehru is my role model (I mainly salute the amazing work he did for independent India and its economy), his decisions have definitely caused disturbance in the lives of so many Muslims (although it has benefited many more people). I would like to apologize on his behalf to you, and families like yours. I am also in favour of someone from current Gandhi family apologizing to the Muslims uprooted from India. But maybe it will never happen because of obvious politics.

 

[vegav]

Muslim league simply wanted their proper land boundaries, which was their right as representatives of Muslims, whom the vast majority of Muslims elected to represent them. Nehru and Gandhi were obsessed with denying Pakistan its legitimate borders.

They even acquiesced to pogroms in Jammu, South Kashmir, East Punjab, and other areas to dispossess Muslims of areas where they formed the majority.

They tried everything to destroy Pakistan, but it did not work.

It is forbidden to refrain from meat for ideological reasons, only for medical ones (gout, etc.) That is because it is a well-established part of Islam and Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad saws.

After direct action day, why will Muslim league be entitled to anything?

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

I would disagree, this is not true for most places I have been to. Burqas are on a steep decline, and one common demand of Muslim women while marrying, is that the husband doesn't force them to wear a burqa. Some rare rich people who live in ghettos do wear one, but anyone living in mixed areas and actually interacting with other communities would not want to wear one. You will be judged daily.
(hyper religiosity makes you unwanted in most societies. That's a reason you will rarely see any Hindu wearing saffron or applying Tilak, in cities.)
For a working person, you are unlikely to be considered for most private jobs if you wear your faith on your sleeve.


They look poor. Poor households tend to be more religious.

I don't know how much you have visited and what is the basis of your assumption that muslim males want that and all?

 

[vegav]

Oh so your family were in the border districts. They had no way of knowing which side of the border their lands would remain after Partition, or maybe they were too sanguine they would be part of Pakistan. Many people weren't sure that a Partition would even occur because the proposal for an actual Pakistan was accepted very late. Even until mid 1947, there were plenty of backers of a unified India. It was felt by them that Muslim League proposal for a Pakistan would eventually be defeated. Everyone basically underestimated Mr. Jinnah, but he was very resolute in his demands. And here we are, you have your own country!

Mahatma Gandhi made one of the historical blunders of his life by not stepping out of the scene; all the fasting he did made matters worse (later Nehru pleaded with him to step out of the scene and let him handle it.) He wanted a unified India even though it was no longer a possibility. Gandhi's idealism wasted many crucial months and possibly years, that would have given the families enough time to transfer smoothly. That's why it's not always beneficial to have good people in charge of a crisis. What you need is brinkmanship and level-headed practicality.

However, no one was expecting communal riots on that scale. It was really spontaneous. And as I said, the lack of policing and poor infrastructure/communication in 1947 meant the situation could not be controlled well.

Nehru did not get along that well with Jinnah on a personal level. Had there been more camaraderie between the two, maybe the transfer would have been smoother.

But the real villain of the haphazard Partition were the British authorities in charge. They were apathetic to any potential genocides ("let the brown people kill each other, who cares?"). Cyril Radcliffe only arrived in India on 8 July, 1947. Before his appointment, he had never visited India and knew no one in the country. The British thought that because he was so ignorant, he will be more neutral. But he really behaved like Donald Trump did during the current US Coronavirus crisis. He did not do any field surveys: in fact, the entire Radcliffe line was drawn in just a few hours during afternoon tea. And both Congress and Muslim League representatives were given exactly two hours to study it. After that, Radcliffe submitted his proposal without consulting anyone. And that was on August 9, 1947. He knew there would be a backlash later so he quickly burned all his research papers, and immediately departed India on August 15 itself.

Also, Mountbatten was more sympathetic to Congress cause. Nehru was on very friendly terms with him and his wife, Edwina (many BJP idiots argue that they had an affair but they were just good friends, nothing more. That miserable wretch, Narendra Modi, cannot attract even an ugly woman like this one.). In all fairness, Nehru tried his best to win more territories for the Congress just as Jinnah did for Pakistan. Nehru even wanted Lahore, but Jinnah wrested it away from him. It was really a chess match. There should have been more give and take on behalf of both parties. But Nehru was definitely a strong negotiator on behalf of the Indians. Also he was very patient and could play the long game. Against all odds, he waited until the end of 1948 to resolve Hyderabad and up to 1950 to resolve the Indian side of Kashmir. He waited until 1961 before the Indians could annex Goa from the Portuguese (first time in that slice of history when brown people fought against white people, and won without any contest!).

In hindsight, I think Nehru was too good for today's Indians. Given the current custodians of the country are illiterate mini fascists, they have benefited from the best leader we ever had. They are not worthy of the legacy he created, the India he had built through patience and hard work. Today's generation of Indians should be really getting down on their hands and knees and worship Nehru for his immense and sole contribution in building this nation. But instead his legacy is being befouled by the ingrates affiliated to the BJP/RSS.

Lastly I must say that the human toll of the tragedy was too much. While Pandit Nehru is my role model (I mainly salute the amazing work he did for independent India and its economy), his decisions have definitely caused disturbance in the lives of so many Muslims (although it has benefited many more people). I would like to apologize on his behalf to you, and families like yours. I am also in favour of someone from current Gandhi family apologizing to the Muslims uprooted from India. But maybe it will never happen because of obvious politics.

Nehru did negotiation? LOL.

Sardar Patel dealt with most of the issues. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee won West Bengal, Patel won Hyderabad. Only thing Nehru did was exchange Lahore for the Gurdaspur district hence keeping Kashmir with India. Not to forget all the apathy he showed towards hindu and sikh refugees in Delhi, he was just a impotent, imbecile, fattu sarkari babu at heart. He was never good enough to polish the shoes or Patel and Rajaji, the real talented administrators of India

Nehru being " friends " with Edwina won nothing for India. All that happened was that the western block needed to check the Russian advance on the eastern front and they needed a buffer state. Muslim league was created to convince indian muslims to ask for a separate homeland and make it seem like it was a civil situation of india than a need of Britian. Nehru was a wannabe and failed Kim Philby, a failure of.colossal proportions and the reason for indian problems today.

 

[Naofumi]

I don't know how much you have visited and what is the basis of your assumption that muslim males want that and all?

He's talking about a micro-regional trend, I have some real life examples :-
One of my neighbour was a school teacher, her mother used to wear burqa but she didn't. Occasionally, she used a Chador or Hijab.
I attended a Muslim meeting - focused on education, the rooms for genders were separate but hardly 10% were in full donned burqa. Hijab, Dupatta and Chador were much more common.
Or alternatively, you can go to Jamia and see what percentage wears a full donned Burqa.