27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[Bossman]

Neither side will go to war right now, world economy is imploding atm

That is the best reason to go war.

 

[PakFactor]

Neither side will go to war right now, world economy is imploding atm

When things don’t go good at home you look outside and cause trouble to rally a beaten down population. Politicians will often times look else where for a fall guy.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan ask your self this question: Out of the whole strike package why Only 4 (2 Mirages + @ JF-17) actually went in for the strike (air interdiction) whilst a whole squadron was air superiority.

Hi,

Well that is the question---. When there were 4 strike aircraft and they all did their job then why did the sqdrn of air superiority fighters did not do their job---. That is what I have been bringing out---.

Why did the pilots had to seek permission to fire on multiple targets that were locked on---. Why did they not have prior briefing when facing a situation like this---.

In modern day air combat---every millisecond counts and every second wasted is a second too late---and every second lost is the difference between life and death---.

Then what was the reason that the Paf air command had not readied its fighter to shoot when targets of opportunity became available---.

Why did the pilot have to call and seek permission---.

Why did that air vice marshall in the air did not understand the gravity of the lost seconds---.

If the pilot did not have the authority to launch missiles---if the AVM in the air did not have the authority to permit launching the missile then what was that AVM doing in the air---what was his job definition that day---.

Why did the Paf hierarchy waste 16 second to give permission to shoot---. Why was not there a person in the control room having the authority to allow shooting down the enemy---. Why was one Paf general passing on the buck to the next general in command---?

 

[Nomad40]

Hi,

Well that is the question---. When there were 4 strike aircraft and they all did their job then why did the sqdrn of air superiority fighters did not do their job---. That is what I have been bringing out---.

Why did the pilots had to seek permission to fire on multiple targets that were locked on---. Why did they not have prior briefing when facing a situation like this---.

In modern day air combat---every millisecond counts and every second wasted is a second too late---and every second lost is the difference between life and death---.

Then what was the reason that the Paf air command had not readied its fighter to shoot when targets of opportunity became available---.

Why did the pilot have to call and seek permission---.

Why did that air vice marshall in the air did not understand the gravity of the lost seconds---.

If the pilot did not have the authority to launch missiles---if the AVM in the air did not have the authority to permit launching the missile then what was that AVM doing in the air---what was his job definition that day---.

Why did the Paf hierarchy waste 16 second to give permission to shoot---. Why was not there a person in the control room having the authority to allow shooting down the enemy---. Why was one Paf general passing on the buck to the next general in command---?

Hello @MastanKhan

The answer is simple Mastan The main focus was an eye for an eye reply and not inflict a whole war on the Indian Air force and the other thing is that ROE's apply. The moment IAF continued bearing towards Pakistan air space they would have been shot down.

why the IAF did not continue is another question.

I can talk for for hours as to why the PAF did not shoot the SU-30 and mirage combos but the straight cave man answer is that the did not violate our air space or they were not an immediate threat to our strike fighters.

We all know what happened to Sardar in the SU-30 and our friend from Chennai in his Mig-21.

I'am more grieved than you because we spared 9 bastards.......9 bastards that were sensible and did nothing wrong.

A counter argument would be this: if so many aircraft were on CAP, why did they have to wait for permission from the ground to engage enemy fighters that were there for the sole reason to prevent them from succeeding in their mission?

In these days of datalinks, the whole aerial picture is in front of the pilots including the mission leader in the air. If they deem an enemy aircraft can pose a threat, they should engage without wasting precious minutes or even seconds which can put the lives of their colleagues in peril.

In aerial warfare I believe seconds count. The country's sovereignty had been violated and you are waiting for permission to fire when the mission itself is an offensive mission albeit in reponse to the enemy's aggression?

In the '67 and '73 wars, the IAF pilots on many occasions took bold decisions on their own. Granted radio communication was not as robust as it is today and they would have made some decisions without able to communicate with ground controllers. Better communications must not result in the decision making process transferred to the ground in the heat of the battle. Micromanagement has some downside.

Every thing is preset. I have no Idea about permission and the clear to shoot from the ground is a BS (what I believe) as soon as one of those engaged targets (Not a bandit yet) would have been a threat to the strikers or attempted to Cross the International border they would have been Amraam'ed.

Permission or no Permission.

 

[Telescopic Sight]

Now that you've been given a befitting response/ reply to every thing you swung at me..., care to go for Round 2?!!

I am logging in after a month. So just saw your response. Will write in detail in a day or two. Thanks!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I am logging in after a month. So just saw your response. Will write in detail in a day or two. Thanks!

You just ran away like a little ***** that you are. You just needed some time to recover from over dosage of reality check.
Now go back to your doodle board and come up with new goofy stuff.

 

[Armchair]

Hello @MastanKhan

The answer is simple Mastan The main focus was an eye for an eye reply and not inflict a whole war on the Indian Air force and the other thing is that ROE's apply. The moment IAF continued bearing towards Pakistan air space they would have been shot down.

why the IAF did not continue is another question.

I can talk for for hours as to why the PAF did not shoot the SU-30 and mirage combos but the straight cave man answer is that the did not violate our air space or they were not an immediate threat to our strike fighters.

We all know what happened to Sardar in the SU-30 and our friend from Chennai in his Mig-21.

I'am more grieved than you because we spared 9 bastards.......9 bastards that were sensible and did nothing wrong.


Every thing is preset. I have no Idea about permission and the clear to shoot from the ground is a BS (what I believe) as soon as one of those engaged targets (Not a bandit yet) would have been a threat to the strikers or attempted to Cross the International border they would have been Amraam'ed.

Permission or no Permission.

It's just the MK and others are upset that a chance of a lifetime to give the Indian a beating to remember was thrown away. A beating that would have avoided the present situation.

Pakistan has seen many opportunities lost, due to these "older wise men"

khirad ko gholami se azad ker, jawano ko piron ke estad kar.

 

[mudas777]

Hi,

At this stage---I do not want a J-31---. We need to keep our fighter / strike aircraft in the realm of reality and that realm is the 4th / 4.5 gen aircraft---.

My ultimate target and goal would be to have a strike aircraft that can hit mumbai and pummel its economic assets to the ground---be it the SU34's---the J models---or the JH7A---it don't matter---but has to be an aircraft that can carry two heavy AShM's or ASM's---.

Pakistan's primary need is to bring lay havoc on the enemy's economic centers---.

Freinds of Pakistan should Negate the Paf's mentality of being a defensive air force---and vehemently condemn and reject it at every forum possible---.

Its about time PAF should move away from the defensive posture and invest in strike capable assets. If we can't strike back with heavy hand and make enemy to pay then enemy will keep on coming at you knowing well eventually your defence assets will degrade and then she will be able to inflict damage. When enemy is made aware of the heavy response it can receive as a pay back then Modi will never dare to cross the line. Regardless of the bravery of the PAF pilots we lack numbers and have got limited strike capabilities which needs considerably ramping up.
PAF is like a goal keeper standing on its own facing 50 penalty kicks and with our sky high optimism without any realism and still expecting to win. The best goal keeper can do is save all the penalties but score will still be 0 at best. The day we give our boys chance to take the penalties at their goal too it will be a game changer. 28th February was a day of celebration but it was a day and time have moved on from that date and enemy have learned and addressing its short comings and next time it may not be that easy hence we need to raise the bar.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Hello @MastanKhan

The answer is simple Mastan The main focus was an eye for an eye reply and not inflict a whole war on the Indian Air force and the other thing is that ROE's apply. The moment IAF continued bearing towards Pakistan air space they would have been shot down.

why the IAF did not continue is another question.

I can talk for for hours as to why the PAF did not shoot the SU-30 and mirage combos but the straight cave man answer is that the did not violate our air space or they were not an immediate threat to our strike fighters.

We all know what happened to Sardar in the SU-30 and our friend from Chennai in his Mig-21.

I'am more grieved than you because we spared 9 bastards.......9 bastards that were sensible and did nothing wrong.


Every thing is preset. I have no Idea about permission and the clear to shoot from the ground is a BS (what I believe) as soon as one of those engaged targets (Not a bandit yet) would have been a threat to the strikers or attempted to Cross the International border they would have been Amraam'ed.

Permission or no Permission.

Can i ask senario about sardar of Su 30, can u share

Hello @MastanKhan

The answer is simple Mastan The main focus was an eye for an eye reply and not inflict a whole war on the Indian Air force and the other thing is that ROE's apply. The moment IAF continued bearing towards Pakistan air space they would have been shot down.

why the IAF did not continue is another question.

I can talk for for hours as to why the PAF did not shoot the SU-30 and mirage combos but the straight cave man answer is that the did not violate our air space or they were not an immediate threat to our strike fighters.

We all know what happened to Sardar in the SU-30 and our friend from Chennai in his Mig-21.

I'am more grieved than you because we spared 9 bastards.......9 bastards that were sensible and did nothing wrong.


Every thing is preset. I have no Idea about permission and the clear to shoot from the ground is a BS (what I believe) as soon as one of those engaged targets (Not a bandit yet) would have been a threat to the strikers or attempted to Cross the International border they would have been Amraam'ed.

Permission or no Permission.

You said something about whay happen to sardar of su30, can you share little info of it

 

[GriffinsRule]

It's just the MK and others are upset that a chance of a lifetime to give the Indian a beating to remember was thrown away. A beating that would have avoided the present situation.



khirad ko gholami se azad ker, jawano ko piron ke estad kar.

There is no guarantee of that and you can not establish a cause and effect either.
In an alternate universe, had PAF shot down 8 IAF aircraft and Modi government would have gone and done the same thing in Kashmir anyways, people would have been bashing PAF saying it made that happen by being reckless and now look what that has led to.
Its easy to cook up fairy tales

 

[MastanKhan]

In these days of datalinks, the whole aerial picture is in front of the pilots including the mission leader in the air. If they deem an enemy aircraft can pose a threat, they should engage without wasting precious minutes or even seconds which can put the lives of their colleagues in peril.

In aerial warfare I believe seconds count. The country's sovereignty had been violated and you are waiting for permission to fire when the mission itself is an offensive mission albeit in reponse to the enemy's aggression?

In the '67 and '73 wars, the IAF pilots on many occasions took bold decisions on their own. Granted radio communication was not as robust as it is today and they would have made some decisions without able to communicate with ground controllers. Better communications must not result in the decision making process transferred to the ground in the heat of the battle. Micromanagement has some downside.

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent excellent post---.

Hello @MastanKhan

The answer is simple Mastan The main focus was an eye for an eye reply and not inflict a whole war on the Indian Air force and the other thing is that ROE's apply. The moment IAF continued bearing towards Pakistan air space they would have been shot down.

why the IAF did not continue is another question.

I can talk for for hours as to why the PAF did not shoot the SU-30 and mirage combos but the straight cave man answer is that the did not violate our air space or they were not an immediate threat to our strike fighters.

We all know what happened to Sardar in the SU-30 and our friend from Chennai in his Mig-21.

I'am more grieved than you because we spared 9 bastards.......9 bastards that were sensible and did nothing wrong.


Every thing is preset. I have no Idea about permission and the clear to shoot from the ground is a BS (what I believe) as soon as one of those engaged targets (Not a bandit yet) would have been a threat to the strikers or attempted to Cross the International border they would have been Amraam'ed.

Permission or no Permission.

Hi,

That is a mentality of incompetence on part of the Paf and of Low Self Esteem---.

The US police has a 21 ft rule---. If a threat gets into your 21ft circle of radius there is a good chance that you might die---.

If they get into 10-12 ft radius---then you may consider yourself dead---.

On the civilian side---a person can claim self defense when the other person either touches them or gets physically close where you feel threatened---.

In the Paf's case the border or line of control was a drama to hide their incompetence---.

If the enemy had fired their BVR's at paf aircraft---the line of control would not have become a wall to have stopped those missiles---.

Just the mere presence of those aircraft in an area of conflict was the reason to take them down---.

The cowardice started on the side of the Paf---when they did not declare the indian strike and act of war---that happened on the 26th---.

After that---everything that happened was for the Paf to save its face.

I will take it to the next level----the real TREASON BY PAKISTAN MILITARY happened when the ISPR etc started giving out details of the poor quality equipment that the indian air force had---.

What they were telling the IAF was to correct their deficiency for future so that we are not able to attack you---.

@crankthatskunk @Mangus Ortus Novem @BATMAN

 

[aziqbal]

A counter argument would be this: if so many aircraft were on CAP, why did they have to wait for permission from the ground to engage enemy fighters that were there for the sole reason to prevent them from succeeding in their mission?

In these days of datalinks, the whole aerial picture is in front of the pilots including the mission leader in the air. If they deem an enemy aircraft can pose a threat, they should engage without wasting precious minutes or even seconds which can put the lives of their colleagues in peril.

In aerial warfare I believe seconds count. The country's sovereignty had been violated and you are waiting for permission to fire when the mission itself is an offensive mission albeit in reponse to the enemy's aggression?

In the '67 and '73 wars, the IAF pilots on many occasions took bold decisions on their own. Granted radio communication was not as robust as it is today and they would have made some decisions without able to communicate with ground controllers. Better communications must not result in the decision making process transferred to the ground in the heat of the battle. Micromanagement has some downside.

No and No

communication and information between air and land is crucial part of pilot training, its fundamental the Air Force pilots take orders not decisions this is drilled in from day one, you step outside this domain you are dismissed no matter how senior you are, this is how it works in the military, why> because you follow plans and instructions

this is what Arabs do and look how it ended for them

Pakistani pilots are disciplined and robust, and in a non-war time footing every order has to followed they are not in the middle of a 1960s dogfight

Operation Swift Retort was planned and executed by the Pakistan high command, the correct procedure was followed and to avoid a all out war, it was a measured response

Indian pilots on the other hand were acting independently basically your descripton and looked what happened

 

[Mentee]

Operation Swift Retort was planned and executed by the Pakistan high command, the correct procedure was followed and to avoid a all out war, it was a measured response

What if the IAF were to engage our strike package first? Or all airborne IAF aircrafts actually got into a hot pursuits like abhinandon?

I don't think they would have bought our
"hey its just tit for tat"
Excuse.

Besides the word improvisation consists of only 13 letters - - -.

 

[MastanKhan]

No and No

communication and information between air and land is crucial part of pilot training, its fundamental the Air Force pilots take orders not decisions this is drilled in from day one, you step outside this domain you are dismissed no matter how senior you are, this is how it works in the military, why> because you follow plans and instructions

this is what Arabs do and look how it ended for them

Pakistani pilots are disciplined and robust, and in a non-war time footing every order has to followed they are not in the middle of a 1960s dogfight

Operation Swift Retort was planned and executed by the Pakistan high command, the correct procedure was followed and to avoid a all out war, it was a measured response

Indian pilots on the other hand were acting independently basically your descripton and looked what happened

Hi,

You just jumped into the fray and have started making excuses---without knowing the procedure and process involved---even though you are an articulate and knowledgeable poster---.

All evantualities are discussed in pre-flight briefing---that was what the Paf pilots had learnt from USAF pilots training---.

That is why the Russian Pilots failed---because they did not have prior permission to take on the enemy pilots---no initiative.

This was not a peace mission where you are about to get jumped or a movie that you might have seen and the pilot asking for permission---.

This does not happen in real combat---on a pre-planned strike mission.

On an actual strike mission---the accompanying aircraft would have the permission to engage any enemy aircraft---.

We are in a BVR AENA air combat---where an enemy can shoot at you staying 20-30-40 miles inside of their border---.

We already know that within the 80-90% kill zone of the BVR missile---whomsoever takes the first shots gets the kill---.

What if the IAF were to engage our strike package first? Or all airborne IAF aircrafts actually got into a hot pursuits like abhinandon?

I don't think they would have bought our
"hey its just tit for tat"
Excuse.

Besides the word improvisation consists of only 13 letters - - -.

Hi,

If the indian pilots had launched their missiles first---all our aircraft were toast---.

Thast is why I had stated in prior posts---for the enemy---it was a test run to check the Paf's response for what was to come in the future---.

 

[aziqbal]

Hi,

You just jumped into the fray and have started making excuses---without knowing the procedure and process involved---even though you are an articulate and knowledgeable poster---.

All evantualities are discussed in pre-flight briefing---that was what the Paf pilots had learnt from USAF pilots training---.

..

Read again my post please, I mentioned non-war time, yes war time you are playing different game

what is the job of the ground air controller can you tell me? Pakistan still using ground based radar to vector fighters in the air ok now we have AWACS but not all the time

We missed many Soviet aircraft during 1980s because our ground communication never relayed the information on time to the fighters doing the intercept this is how it works in peace time, but at no stage did the pilots act independently avoiding a full scale confrontation with Russia

I think your understanding of air combat is a bit lacking

What if the IAF were to engage our strike package first? Or all airborne IAF aircrafts actually got into a hot pursuits like abhinandon?

- - -.

what are you saying that Pakistan air defence controllers should not have been employed in operation swift retort? one of them even got a award

i dont understand what the point is here, do people here know more than PAF who executed a text book interception ?