27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[PakFactor]

The really what happened this what happened
The PAF's North & South Axes were decoys, the Central axis was the main strike thrust - with F-16s using 1000 lbs LGBs, JF-17 the REKs and the Mir III/V the H2/ H4 SOW on 16 Corps targets. The PAF did not cross the LC anywhere.
The JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 engagement took place North of J&K as the JF-17s tried to 'push' the M2000s in a 'Red on Red'. The JF-17's NRIET KLJ-7 PD radar did not do well against the M2000s. The JF-17s main job was to keep the M2000s tied up and not move south.
A pair of M21 Bison was scrambled towards the north edge of the Central axis. Another pair was scrambled south west. Abhinandan was part of the SW vector.
The IAF did not have any AWACS on station, the PAF had a Saab 2000 ERIEYE 100 km at 30,000 feet, which controlled the battle space out to 150 Km+ inside India, guiding the HiTech F-16s positioning for Ambushing IAF jets in a designated kill zone in south J&K.
In central Axis, the the F-16s climbed to 40,000 feet and went supersonic. The JF-17s and Mir III/Vs released their payloads out of range due the threat of the M2000s north east of them, whom the JF-17s had not checked effectively
The PAF carried out Comm jamming, which was effective in places. With no AWACS the the IACCS's vectored 2 Su-30MKIs towards Poonch Rajouri. The PAF communication intercepted on the ERIEYE showed that the PAF was vary of the upgraded M2000s moving south.
There were 2x PAF 4 aircraft F-16 formations, one at 40,000 feet and the other undetected at 10-15,000 feet, approaching Nowshera. The plan was to fire the the first volley of AMRAAMS by the 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet, targeting the approaching Su-30MKIs
As the Su-30MKIs would engage in defensive manoeuvring, the second formation of 4 x F-16s at 15,000 feet (which had just finished a LGB run), would target the Su-30MKIs with a second volley of AMRAAMs
The Su-30MKIs picked up the higher pair of F-16s at 35-40,000 feet and anticipated the launch in a 'Red on Red', also cautioned by the GC The Su-30s cranked to reduce their forward travel and being in a position to outrun the AMRAAM's kinematics.
The Su-30MKI's did not get a launch command on their own R27 and RVV-AE AAMs due the differential in the snap up launch, with the F-16s going cold after launching their AMRAAMs
The timely cranking and the chaff helped the Su-30MKIs outmaneuver the AMRAAMs. 5 AIM-120C-5 s were fired on the Sukhois with no hit....
Meanwhile Abhinandan and his No 2 closed into the lower pair of F-16s abeam Nowshera, who were climbing to 25,000 feet to target the Sukhois in a flanking move
It was a 'red on red' for Abhinandan as he was picked up, but pressed on his attack after manually locking his R-73 on a F-16. He fired and turned back. One F-16 was hit and went down. Abhi was hit by an AMRAAM fired by a F-16, ejecting successfuly
Three chutes were reported in the area, with widespread reporting by ISPR and Pal handles that they had three pilots in custody. A parachute with Indian colours was seen coming down. For info the C-9 chute on the F-16 seat has white, orange and green colours
The PAF surprised the IAF by launching AAMs from inside Azad Kashmir. The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF AAMs, which did not get launch commands. Keeping the M2000s away from the F-16s was a priority for the PAF.
Abhinandan's act of engaging the lower pair of F-16s disrupted their plan to shoot down an IAF Sukhoi. Abhi scored the first F-16 kill by a Mig-21.

What a load of garage I just read. JF-17 radars didn’t perform well etc (you were sitting in the pilots lap that you would know?), among other nonsense you wrote.

 

[Sidacca]

The really what happened this what happened
The PAF's North & South Axes were decoys, the Central axis was the main strike thrust - with F-16s using 1000 lbs LGBs, JF-17 the REKs and the Mir III/V the H2/ H4 SOW on 16 Corps targets. The PAF did not cross the LC anywhere.
The JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 engagement took place North of J&K as the JF-17s tried to 'push' the M2000s in a 'Red on Red'. The JF-17's NRIET KLJ-7 PD radar did not do well against the M2000s. The JF-17s main job was to keep the M2000s tied up and not move south.
A pair of M21 Bison was scrambled towards the north edge of the Central axis. Another pair was scrambled south west. Abhinandan was part of the SW vector.
The IAF did not have any AWACS on station, the PAF had a Saab 2000 ERIEYE 100 km at 30,000 feet, which controlled the battle space out to 150 Km+ inside India, guiding the HiTech F-16s positioning for Ambushing IAF jets in a designated kill zone in south J&K.
In central Axis, the the F-16s climbed to 40,000 feet and went supersonic. The JF-17s and Mir III/Vs released their payloads out of range due the threat of the M2000s north east of them, whom the JF-17s had not checked effectively
The PAF carried out Comm jamming, which was effective in places. With no AWACS the the IACCS's vectored 2 Su-30MKIs towards Poonch Rajouri. The PAF communication intercepted on the ERIEYE showed that the PAF was vary of the upgraded M2000s moving south.
There were 2x PAF 4 aircraft F-16 formations, one at 40,000 feet and the other undetected at 10-15,000 feet, approaching Nowshera. The plan was to fire the the first volley of AMRAAMS by the 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet, targeting the approaching Su-30MKIs
As the Su-30MKIs would engage in defensive manoeuvring, the second formation of 4 x F-16s at 15,000 feet (which had just finished a LGB run), would target the Su-30MKIs with a second volley of AMRAAMs
The Su-30MKIs picked up the higher pair of F-16s at 35-40,000 feet and anticipated the launch in a 'Red on Red', also cautioned by the GC The Su-30s cranked to reduce their forward travel and being in a position to outrun the AMRAAM's kinematics.
The Su-30MKI's did not get a launch command on their own R27 and RVV-AE AAMs due the differential in the snap up launch, with the F-16s going cold after launching their AMRAAMs
The timely cranking and the chaff helped the Su-30MKIs outmaneuver the AMRAAMs. 5 AIM-120C-5 s were fired on the Sukhois with no hit....
Meanwhile Abhinandan and his No 2 closed into the lower pair of F-16s abeam Nowshera, who were climbing to 25,000 feet to target the Sukhois in a flanking move
It was a 'red on red' for Abhinandan as he was picked up, but pressed on his attack after manually locking his R-73 on a F-16. He fired and turned back. One F-16 was hit and went down. Abhi was hit by an AMRAAM fired by a F-16, ejecting successfuly
Three chutes were reported in the area, with widespread reporting by ISPR and Pal handles that they had three pilots in custody. A parachute with Indian colours was seen coming down. For info the C-9 chute on the F-16 seat has white, orange and green colours
The PAF surprised the IAF by launching AAMs from inside Azad Kashmir. The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF AAMs, which did not get launch commands. Keeping the M2000s away from the F-16s was a priority for the PAF.
Abhinandan's act of engaging the lower pair of F-16s disrupted their plan to shoot down an IAF Sukhoi. Abhi scored the first F-16 kill by a Mig-21.

I was agree to your post until I read f16 was hit...... No f16 is lost that's clear only mig21 lost, please come out of your bollywood world.... Abhinandan didn't fire any missile all of them are intact and recovered. Thanks

 

[serenity]

Very skillful writing for fiction. Where can someone with such good imagination have made up all these details. Amazing work Prince Kassad. Maybe you really do know and you saw every detail with God's eye from both sides.

Indian airforce could not manage to shoot down single Pakistan Mirage, F-16 or JF-17 with India's Su-30 or Mirage 2000 or even Mig-21. If Mig-21 actually did kill F-16 how come American say this is not true and how come all Mig-21 missiles recovered? I don't understand how some people can still believe F-16 story. For me I don't know if Pakistan killed any Su-30 but also find it very strange why India a few days or maybe week later formally acknowledge losing at least two Su-30 pilots due to some accident. Of course this may be true and just coincidence but comparing Su-30 story with F-16 story, the evidence is suggesting F-16 in unlikely defeated and Su-30 is possible that it was defeated. I don't care either way only looking at this from fair perspective. For one thing to consider, China uses Su-30 and no F-16 so of course I would love for Su-30 or even Mig-21 to be able to defeat F-16.

 

[DrWatson775]

No and No

communication and information between air and land is crucial part of pilot training, its fundamental the Air Force pilots take orders not decisions this is drilled in from day one, you step outside this domain you are dismissed no matter how senior you are, this is how it works in the military, why> because you follow plans and instructions

this is what Arabs do and look how it ended for them

Pakistani pilots are disciplined and robust, and in a non-war time footing every order has to followed they are not in the middle of a 1960s dogfight

Operation Swift Retort was planned and executed by the Pakistan high command, the correct procedure was followed and to avoid a all out war, it was a measured response

Indian pilots on the other hand were acting independently basically your descripton and looked what happened

Please read my post again. Yes orders and objectives are clarified in briefings but there is something here that doesn't add up. I will say again that I believe in aerial warfare you need to detect and fire first - I am no expert but this is a no brainer. Asking for permission to protect the strike aircraft is a waste of time that can cost you dearly.

I believe permission was only given to shoot at the leading SU30 and not his wingman which begs the question - why shoot at one of them when both of them in formation are a threat. This is too much restraint. If the argument is well fire at one and the other will know to back off then I believe this is a mistake. By the time the lead SU30's RWR sounds( when the amraam goes active) several seconds would have passed, add to that many more seconds if the wingman doesn't back off and you have given him enough time to lock and launch all his BVRs. Dont hate me for saying this but PAF got a bit lucky while showing too much restraint.

 

[Prince Kassad]

Very skillful writing for fiction. Where can someone with such good imagination have made up all these details. Amazing work Prince Kassad. Maybe you really do know and you saw every detail with God's eye from both sides.

Indian airforce could not manage to shoot down single Pakistan Mirage, F-16 or JF-17 with India's Su-30 or Mirage 2000 or even Mig-21. If Mig-21 actually did kill F-16 how come American say this is not true and how come all Mig-21 missiles recovered? I don't understand how some people can still believe F-16 story. For me I don't know if Pakistan killed any Su-30 but also find it very strange why India a few days or maybe week later formally acknowledge losing at least two Su-30 pilots due to some accident. Of course this may be true and just coincidence but comparing Su-30 story with F-16 story, the evidence is suggesting F-16 in unlikely defeated and Su-30 is possible that it was defeated. I don't care either way only looking at this from fair perspective. For one thing to consider, China uses Su-30 and no F-16 so of course I would love for Su-30 or even Mig-21 to be able to defeat F-16.

1. A strike force of 24 PAF jets headed towards Indian airspace, of which at least 10 violated Indian airspace. Of those, 3 F-16s, one of them known to be an F-16D Block 52, were designated to head towards ground bombing on the Nanga Tekri forward base. The other 7 were a support package, with extra air support across the border.
   

2. IAF scrambles 2 Bisons, 3 Mirages and 3 Su-30 MKIs to counter the threat. The PAF strike package drops their laser guided bombs in anticipation of a dogfight which hit the military compound on the Indian side without any casualties or damage to infra, and these F-16s turn around and start "going cold" so that they can lure IAF jets into an ambush where the IAF can be outnumbered.

3. The more "nimble" but "not strategic" IAF assets (in other words, more expendable jets, the MIG and the Mirage) are asked to chase the PAF out but NOT engage. Seeing the IAF on their tails, F-16s perform evasive positioning to start the dogfight - this is where the helmet mounted sights of the PAF come in handy. The MIGs continue to chase and one of the wingmen asks Abhi to turn cold as well. Abhi refuses and locks on a PAF F-16 : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ocked-on-to-pak-f-16/articleshow/68238027.cms




4. Abhi shoots the R-73, it is a clean kill - 2 parachutes come out of the downed PAF jet : unlike other jets which would have exploded like a fireball, the F-16 is known to be a vertical dart (shoots straight for the ground, as it did in the video post the hit).https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/86-seconds-of-dogfight-at-900-kmph/736286.html




5. Before Abhi had shot the R-73, an AMRAAM was launched by the helmet mounted sight of the PAF jet, before it started the countermeasures to avoid the R-73 - this was not sufficient, and hit the engine (the R-73 is heat seaking). This AMRAAM hit Abhi's jet at 15,000 ft in India : he ejected after realising that the plane cannot be controlled. The winds took him 7km into Azad Kashmir. The PAF jet was shot 3 km in Azad Kashmir. The winds carried the PAF pilots further inside Azad Kashmir.

6. In another part of the same conflict theatre, a Su-30 MKI was locked on by another PAF jet in a BVR space : the Sukhoi deployed very effective countermeasures and positioned itself offensively (but this positioning takes time) - by this time, the PAF jets turned back as bombs had already been dropped. The AMRAAM does not self-explode, rather, is triggered by a proximity fuse, so it either hits a target, or does not, loses it's fuel, glides to the ground and detonates. This is the same missile that was presented as evidence. Link : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...aam-missile-remnants/articleshow/68225187.cms




7. Now, coming to what I have mentioned the "PAF jet" all throughout - I think it was most definitely a F-16D. There are 2 things that nail this : one is most definitely the AMRAAM evidence that IAF had. Watch from 10:00 mark on this video.

- the JF-17 has the avionics to fit only PL-5 or the SD-10 Chinese A2A missiles. The second most pressing evidence here is the fact that IAF gathered the electronic signature of the F-16 - this may be classified information (as it would be against a friendly country to disclose what an F-16 looks like on radar), but that is what ELINT operations are for : the IAF has taken part in enough Air Exercises with Israel, UK, Australia, Singapore and Japan to know what radar, infrared and satellite signatures look like. Also, just because our jets cannot fly within 10km of the LoC does not mean that our radars do not capture their signatures and PAF does not capture our signatures. PAF too would be aware of exactly what we are carrying. These electronic signatures are very hard to decoy (there are these things called MALDs which have matured in testing in the last two decades and can spoof enemy radar with anything ranging from bombers to fighter jets, but I do not think that PAF has procured them). Link -

8. Now, my last point : the supposed "second Indian downed jet " : Pakistan has a habit of one-upping India in the international media, even if untrue. If two IAF jets were indeed shot down and one jet flew back to India, news of it would have spread here too. I suspect the claim that PAF made that 2 IAF jets were downed was part PsyOps and part fog of war (probably ISPR did not know that the "3 parachutes in total" did not mean 3 jets, 2 IAF, 1 PAF, but rather, 1 PAF (2 pilots) + 1 IAF). If the 2nd IAF jet was at all gliding into Azad Kashmir, then Pakistan would have definitely paraded the second pilot as well in the international media. Nor would IAF come to a secret agreement with Pakistan on hiding the identity of the second pilot. It is not in their nature to keep things quiet between each other. Another video highlighting all of JF-17's inventory :

I hope this was more informative for you, because I was on this for 2 hours. Jai Hind.

EDIT 1 : For all those asking "how Pakistan can counter the fact that their F-16 was shot down / AMRAAM was used" : they cannot. Also, US / West cannot counter and accept the fact that they got beaten by a third gen 60s fighter, so please do not believe the misinformation spread by them too.

 

[Cuirassier]

Jai Hind Sir! Truth has been revealed. All hail mighty Vayusena.

1. A strike force of 24 PAF jets headed towards Indian airspace, of which at least 10 violated Indian airspace. Of those, 3 F-16s, one of them known to be an F-16D Block 52, were designated to head towards ground bombing on the Nanga Tekri forward base. The other 7 were a support package, with extra air support across the border.
   

2. IAF scrambles 2 Bisons, 3 Mirages and 3 Su-30 MKIs to counter the threat. The PAF strike package drops their laser guided bombs in anticipation of a dogfight which hit the military compound on the Indian side without any casualties or damage to infra, and these F-16s turn around and start "going cold" so that they can lure IAF jets into an ambush where the IAF can be outnumbered.

3. The more "nimble" but "not strategic" IAF assets (in other words, more expendable jets, the MIG and the Mirage) are asked to chase the PAF out but NOT engage. Seeing the IAF on their tails, F-16s perform evasive positioning to start the dogfight - this is where the helmet mounted sights of the PAF come in handy. The MIGs continue to chase and one of the wingmen asks Abhi to turn cold as well. Abhi refuses and locks on a PAF F-16 : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ocked-on-to-pak-f-16/articleshow/68238027.cms




4. Abhi shoots the R-73, it is a clean kill - 2 parachutes come out of the downed PAF jet : unlike other jets which would have exploded like a fireball, the F-16 is known to be a vertical dart (shoots straight for the ground, as it did in the video post the hit).https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/86-seconds-of-dogfight-at-900-kmph/736286.html




5. Before Abhi had shot the R-73, an AMRAAM was launched by the helmet mounted sight of the PAF jet, before it started the countermeasures to avoid the R-73 - this was not sufficient, and hit the engine (the R-73 is heat seaking). This AMRAAM hit Abhi's jet at 15,000 ft in India : he ejected after realising that the plane cannot be controlled. The winds took him 7km into Azad Kashmir. The PAF jet was shot 3 km in Azad Kashmir. The winds carried the PAF pilots further inside Azad Kashmir.

6. In another part of the same conflict theatre, a Su-30 MKI was locked on by another PAF jet in a BVR space : the Sukhoi deployed very effective countermeasures and positioned itself offensively (but this positioning takes time) - by this time, the PAF jets turned back as bombs had already been dropped. The AMRAAM does not self-explode, rather, is triggered by a proximity fuse, so it either hits a target, or does not, loses it's fuel, glides to the ground and detonates. This is the same missile that was presented as evidence. Link : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...aam-missile-remnants/articleshow/68225187.cms




7. Now, coming to what I have mentioned the "PAF jet" all throughout - I think it was most definitely a F-16D. There are 2 things that nail this : one is most definitely the AMRAAM evidence that IAF had. Watch from 10:00 mark on this video.

- the JF-17 has the avionics to fit only PL-5 or the SD-10 Chinese A2A missiles. The second most pressing evidence here is the fact that IAF gathered the electronic signature of the F-16 - this may be classified information (as it would be against a friendly country to disclose what an F-16 looks like on radar), but that is what ELINT operations are for : the IAF has taken part in enough Air Exercises with Israel, UK, Australia, Singapore and Japan to know what radar, infrared and satellite signatures look like. Also, just because our jets cannot fly within 10km of the LoC does not mean that our radars do not capture their signatures and PAF does not capture our signatures. PAF too would be aware of exactly what we are carrying. These electronic signatures are very hard to decoy (there are these things called MALDs which have matured in testing in the last two decades and can spoof enemy radar with anything ranging from bombers to fighter jets, but I do not think that PAF has procured them). Link -

8. Now, my last point : the supposed "second Indian downed jet " : Pakistan has a habit of one-upping India in the international media, even if untrue. If two IAF jets were indeed shot down and one jet flew back to India, news of it would have spread here too. I suspect the claim that PAF made that 2 IAF jets were downed was part PsyOps and part fog of war (probably ISPR did not know that the "3 parachutes in total" did not mean 3 jets, 2 IAF, 1 PAF, but rather, 1 PAF (2 pilots) + 1 IAF). If the 2nd IAF jet was at all gliding into Azad Kashmir, then Pakistan would have definitely paraded the second pilot as well in the international media. Nor would IAF come to a secret agreement with Pakistan on hiding the identity of the second pilot. It is not in their nature to keep things quiet between each other. Another video highlighting all of JF-17's inventory :

I hope this was more informative for you, because I was on this for 2 hours. Jai Hind.

EDIT 1 : For all those asking "how Pakistan can counter the fact that their F-16 was shot down / AMRAAM was used" : they cannot. Also, US / West cannot counter and accept the fact that they got beaten by a third gen 60s fighter, so please do not believe the misinformation spread by them too.

 

[DrWatson775]

The really what happened this what happened
The PAF's North & South Axes were decoys, the Central axis was the main strike thrust - with F-16s using 1000 lbs LGBs, JF-17 the REKs and the Mir III/V the H2/ H4 SOW on 16 Corps targets. The PAF did not cross the LC anywhere.

The JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 engagement took place North of J&K as the JF-17s tried to 'push' the M2000s in a 'Red on Red'. The JF-17's NRIET KLJ-7 PD radar did not do well against the M2000s. The JF-17s main job was to keep the M2000s tied up and not move south.
A pair of M21 Bison was scrambled towards the north edge of the Central axis. Another pair was scrambled south west. Abhinandan was part of the SW vector.
The IAF did not have any AWACS on station, the PAF had a Saab 2000 ERIEYE 100 km at 30,000 feet, which controlled the battle space out to 150 Km+ inside India, guiding the HiTech F-16s positioning for Ambushing IAF jets in a designated kill zone in south J&K.
In central Axis, the the F-16s climbed to 40,000 feet and went supersonic. The JF-17s and Mir III/Vs released their payloads out of range due the threat of the M2000s north east of them, whom the JF-17s had not checked effectively
The PAF carried out Comm jamming, which was effective in places. With no AWACS the the IACCS's vectored 2 Su-30MKIs towards Poonch Rajouri. The PAF communication intercepted on the ERIEYE showed that the PAF was vary of the upgraded M2000s moving south.
There were 2x PAF 4 aircraft F-16 formations, one at 40,000 feet and the other undetected at 10-15,000 feet, approaching Nowshera. The plan was to fire the the first volley of AMRAAMS by the 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet, targeting the approaching Su-30MKIs
As the Su-30MKIs would engage in defensive manoeuvring, the second formation of 4 x F-16s at 15,000 feet (which had just finished a LGB run), would target the Su-30MKIs with a second volley of AMRAAMs
The Su-30MKIs picked up the higher pair of F-16s at 35-40,000 feet and anticipated the launch in a 'Red on Red', also cautioned by the GC The Su-30s cranked to reduce their forward travel and being in a position to outrun the AMRAAM's kinematics.
The Su-30MKI's did not get a launch command on their own R27 and RVV-AE AAMs due the differential in the snap up launch, with the F-16s going cold after launching their AMRAAMs
The timely cranking and the chaff helped the Su-30MKIs outmaneuver the AMRAAMs. 5 AIM-120C-5 s were fired on the Sukhois with no hit....
Meanwhile Abhinandan and his No 2 closed into the lower pair of F-16s abeam Nowshera, who were climbing to 25,000 feet to target the Sukhois in a flanking move
It was a 'red on red' for Abhinandan as he was picked up, but pressed on his attack after manually locking his R-73 on a F-16. He fired and turned back. One F-16 was hit and went down. Abhi was hit by an AMRAAM fired by a F-16, ejecting successfuly
Three chutes were reported in the area, with widespread reporting by ISPR and Pal handles that they had three pilots in custody. A parachute with Indian colours was seen coming down. For info the C-9 chute on the F-16 seat has white, orange and green colours
The PAF surprised the IAF by launching AAMs from inside Azad Kashmir. The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF AAMs, which did not get launch commands. Keeping the M2000s away from the F-16s was a priority for the PAF.
Abhinandan's act of engaging the lower pair of F-16s disrupted their plan to shoot down an IAF Sukhoi. Abhi scored the first F-16 kill by a Mig-21.

You write well but garbage is just garbage no matter how well written it is.

1. Abhinandan has never claimed a kill.
2. Independant experts (not from Pakistan) have examined his aircraft remains and no missile was fired.
3. Abhinandan is on record saying that he was looking for PAF fighters when he was hit.
4. Count of F16s is done - reported by independant sources, all accounted for. Where is the SU30 count?
5. You cant swallow that Chinese/Pak made JF17s and 50 yrs old Mirages struck Indian military garrisons and have to come up with F16s dropping bombs.
6. Bombs landed in Indian military garrisons and where is India's response???? Perhaps it was " Rafale ke kami mehsoos hoi ". Is that all?

 

[Imran Khan]

1. A strike force of 24 PAF jets headed towards Indian airspace, of which at least 10 violated Indian airspace. Of those, 3 F-16s, one of them known to be an F-16D Block 52, were designated to head towards ground bombing on the Nanga Tekri forward base. The other 7 were a support package, with extra air support across the border.

2. IAF scrambles 2 Bisons, 3 Mirages and 3 Su-30 MKIs to counter the threat. The PAF strike package drops their laser guided bombs in anticipation of a dogfight which hit the military compound on the Indian side without any casualties or damage to infra, and these F-16s turn around and start "going cold" so that they can lure IAF jets into an ambush where the IAF can be outnumbered.

3. The more "nimble" but "not strategic" IAF assets (in other words, more expendable jets, the MIG and the Mirage) are asked to chase the PAF out but NOT engage. Seeing the IAF on their tails, F-16s perform evasive positioning to start the dogfight - this is where the helmet mounted sights of the PAF come in handy. The MIGs continue to chase and one of the wingmen asks Abhi to turn cold as well. Abhi refuses and locks on a PAF F-16 : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ocked-on-to-pak-f-16/articleshow/68238027.cms




4. Abhi shoots the R-73, it is a clean kill - 2 parachutes come out of the downed PAF jet : unlike other jets which would have exploded like a fireball, the F-16 is known to be a vertical dart (shoots straight for the ground, as it did in the video post the hit).https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/86-seconds-of-dogfight-at-900-kmph/736286.html




5. Before Abhi had shot the R-73, an AMRAAM was launched by the helmet mounted sight of the PAF jet, before it started the countermeasures to avoid the R-73 - this was not sufficient, and hit the engine (the R-73 is heat seaking). This AMRAAM hit Abhi's jet at 15,000 ft in India : he ejected after realising that the plane cannot be controlled. The winds took him 7km into Azad Kashmir. The PAF jet was shot 3 km in Azad Kashmir. The winds carried the PAF pilots further inside Azad Kashmir.

6. In another part of the same conflict theatre, a Su-30 MKI was locked on by another PAF jet in a BVR space : the Sukhoi deployed very effective countermeasures and positioned itself offensively (but this positioning takes time) - by this time, the PAF jets turned back as bombs had already been dropped. The AMRAAM does not self-explode, rather, is triggered by a proximity fuse, so it either hits a target, or does not, loses it's fuel, glides to the ground and detonates. This is the same missile that was presented as evidence. Link : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...aam-missile-remnants/articleshow/68225187.cms




7. Now, coming to what I have mentioned the "PAF jet" all throughout - I think it was most definitely a F-16D. There are 2 things that nail this : one is most definitely the AMRAAM evidence that IAF had. Watch from 10:00 mark on this video.

- the JF-17 has the avionics to fit only PL-5 or the SD-10 Chinese A2A missiles. The second most pressing evidence here is the fact that IAF gathered the electronic signature of the F-16 - this may be classified information (as it would be against a friendly country to disclose what an F-16 looks like on radar), but that is what ELINT operations are for : the IAF has taken part in enough Air Exercises with Israel, UK, Australia, Singapore and Japan to know what radar, infrared and satellite signatures look like. Also, just because our jets cannot fly within 10km of the LoC does not mean that our radars do not capture their signatures and PAF does not capture our signatures. PAF too would be aware of exactly what we are carrying. These electronic signatures are very hard to decoy (there are these things called MALDs which have matured in testing in the last two decades and can spoof enemy radar with anything ranging from bombers to fighter jets, but I do not think that PAF has procured them). Link -

8. Now, my last point : the supposed "second Indian downed jet " : Pakistan has a habit of one-upping India in the international media, even if untrue. If two IAF jets were indeed shot down and one jet flew back to India, news of it would have spread here too. I suspect the claim that PAF made that 2 IAF jets were downed was part PsyOps and part fog of war (probably ISPR did not know that the "3 parachutes in total" did not mean 3 jets, 2 IAF, 1 PAF, but rather, 1 PAF (2 pilots) + 1 IAF). If the 2nd IAF jet was at all gliding into Azad Kashmir, then Pakistan would have definitely paraded the second pilot as well in the international media. Nor would IAF come to a secret agreement with Pakistan on hiding the identity of the second pilot. It is not in their nature to keep things quiet between each other. Another video highlighting all of JF-17's inventory :

I hope this was more informative for you, because I was on this for 2 hours. Jai Hind.

EDIT 1 : For all those asking "how Pakistan can counter the fact that their F-16 was shot down / AMRAAM was used" : they cannot. Also, US / West cannot counter and accept the fact that they got beaten by a third gen 60s fighter, so please do not believe the misinformation spread by them too.

you guys have any shame left or finished ? you loss in minutes of air battle when you start shooting own air force with missiles . the panic was so deep in your forces that they forget what to do

this is the only victory of india on 27 feb only thing you shot down was own chopper and kill all six on it

 

[Falcon26]

1. A strike force of 24 PAF jets headed towards Indian airspace, of which at least 10 violated Indian airspace. Of those, 3 F-16s, one of them known to be an F-16D Block 52, were designated to head towards ground bombing on the Nanga Tekri forward base. The other 7 were a support package, with extra air support across the border.

2. IAF scrambles 2 Bisons, 3 Mirages and 3 Su-30 MKIs to counter the threat. The PAF strike package drops their laser guided bombs in anticipation of a dogfight which hit the military compound on the Indian side without any casualties or damage to infra, and these F-16s turn around and start "going cold" so that they can lure IAF jets into an ambush where the IAF can be outnumbered.

3. The more "nimble" but "not strategic" IAF assets (in other words, more expendable jets, the MIG and the Mirage) are asked to chase the PAF out but NOT engage. Seeing the IAF on their tails, F-16s perform evasive positioning to start the dogfight - this is where the helmet mounted sights of the PAF come in handy. The MIGs continue to chase and one of the wingmen asks Abhi to turn cold as well. Abhi refuses and locks on a PAF F-16 : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ocked-on-to-pak-f-16/articleshow/68238027.cms




4. Abhi shoots the R-73, it is a clean kill - 2 parachutes come out of the downed PAF jet : unlike other jets which would have exploded like a fireball, the F-16 is known to be a vertical dart (shoots straight for the ground, as it did in the video post the hit).https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/86-seconds-of-dogfight-at-900-kmph/736286.html




5. Before Abhi had shot the R-73, an AMRAAM was launched by the helmet mounted sight of the PAF jet, before it started the countermeasures to avoid the R-73 - this was not sufficient, and hit the engine (the R-73 is heat seaking). This AMRAAM hit Abhi's jet at 15,000 ft in India : he ejected after realising that the plane cannot be controlled. The winds took him 7km into Azad Kashmir. The PAF jet was shot 3 km in Azad Kashmir. The winds carried the PAF pilots further inside Azad Kashmir.

6. In another part of the same conflict theatre, a Su-30 MKI was locked on by another PAF jet in a BVR space : the Sukhoi deployed very effective countermeasures and positioned itself offensively (but this positioning takes time) - by this time, the PAF jets turned back as bombs had already been dropped. The AMRAAM does not self-explode, rather, is triggered by a proximity fuse, so it either hits a target, or does not, loses it's fuel, glides to the ground and detonates. This is the same missile that was presented as evidence. Link : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...aam-missile-remnants/articleshow/68225187.cms




7. Now, coming to what I have mentioned the "PAF jet" all throughout - I think it was most definitely a F-16D. There are 2 things that nail this : one is most definitely the AMRAAM evidence that IAF had. Watch from 10:00 mark on this video.

- the JF-17 has the avionics to fit only PL-5 or the SD-10 Chinese A2A missiles. The second most pressing evidence here is the fact that IAF gathered the electronic signature of the F-16 - this may be classified information (as it would be against a friendly country to disclose what an F-16 looks like on radar), but that is what ELINT operations are for : the IAF has taken part in enough Air Exercises with Israel, UK, Australia, Singapore and Japan to know what radar, infrared and satellite signatures look like. Also, just because our jets cannot fly within 10km of the LoC does not mean that our radars do not capture their signatures and PAF does not capture our signatures. PAF too would be aware of exactly what we are carrying. These electronic signatures are very hard to decoy (there are these things called MALDs which have matured in testing in the last two decades and can spoof enemy radar with anything ranging from bombers to fighter jets, but I do not think that PAF has procured them). Link -

8. Now, my last point : the supposed "second Indian downed jet " : Pakistan has a habit of one-upping India in the international media, even if untrue. If two IAF jets were indeed shot down and one jet flew back to India, news of it would have spread here too. I suspect the claim that PAF made that 2 IAF jets were downed was part PsyOps and part fog of war (probably ISPR did not know that the "3 parachutes in total" did not mean 3 jets, 2 IAF, 1 PAF, but rather, 1 PAF (2 pilots) + 1 IAF). If the 2nd IAF jet was at all gliding into Azad Kashmir, then Pakistan would have definitely paraded the second pilot as well in the international media. Nor would IAF come to a secret agreement with Pakistan on hiding the identity of the second pilot. It is not in their nature to keep things quiet between each other. Another video highlighting all of JF-17's inventory :

I hope this was more informative for you, because I was on this for 2 hours. Jai Hind.

EDIT 1 : For all those asking "how Pakistan can counter the fact that their F-16 was shot down / AMRAAM was used" : they cannot. Also, US / West cannot counter and accept the fact that they got beaten by a third gen 60s fighter, so please do not believe the misinformation spread by them too.

The fact that Indians believe an F-16 was shot down despite all the MIG-21 weapons are with Pakistan shows what sort of delusional Indians suffer from. Never seen anything close to such a mass delusion.

 

[Imran Khan]

The fact that Indians believe an F-16 was shot down despite all the MIG-21 weapons are with Pakistan shows what sort of delusional Indians suffer from. Never seen anything close to such a mass delusion.

after recent ISPR show case of mig-21 weapons and wreckage they better forget it . but they come up with new stories . just wait few years and they will say it was not mig-21 it was pakistnai f-7 that was down that day

 

[Falcon26]

after recent ISPR show case of mig-21 weapons and wreckage they better forget it . but they come up with new stories . just wait few years and they will say it was not mig-21 it was pakistnai f-7 that was down that day

They can’t stomach the fact their “rising super power” was smacked silly and humiliated on a global scale by a country 10x smaller. Crazy conspiracies are being churned out on a daily basis to cover up their screw up but with each new conspiracy theory, they end up digging themselves deeper holes.

They have yet to convince a single reputable neutral source of their delusions, so they attack the entire world as being in bed with Pakistan; the same Pakistan that we have been told for years is isolated and has no friends.

Pakistan is truly lucky to have such people as enemies.

 

[Suriya]

The fact that Indians believe an F-16 was shot down despite all the MIG-21 weapons are with Pakistan shows what sort of delusional Indians suffer from. Never seen anything close to such a mass delusion.

@Imran Khan In pages 633 to 647( a long debate), i had shown how Right side R-73 is missing from the Mig21 wreckage site.

 

[Imran Khan]

They can’t stomach their “rising super power” was smacked silly and humiliated on a global scale by a country 10x smaller. Crazy conspiracies are being churned out on a daily basis to cover up their screw up but with each new conspiracy theory, they end up digging themselves deeper holes.

They have yet to convince a single reputable neutral source of their delusions, so they attack the entire world as being in bed with Pakistan; the same Pakistan that we have been told for years is isolated and has no friends.

Pakistan is truly lucky to have such people as enemies.

the good time was when their mouth peace like Christine Fair show then mirror in delhi the lady is hardcore anti pakistan pro indian but she even shouted them in delhi for lies

 

[Falcon26]

Why you ashamed of your country flag?

Isolation on you for us has worked pretty well, Your country is almost bankrupted. oops

My country is the most powerful nation the world has ever seen. Proudly American. Not everyone who calls out your nonsense is Pakistani.

 

[TsAr]

The really what happened this what happened
The PAF's North & South Axes were decoys, the Central axis was the main strike thrust - with F-16s using 1000 lbs LGBs, JF-17 the REKs and the Mir III/V the H2/ H4 SOW on 16 Corps targets. The PAF did not cross the LC anywhere.

The JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 engagement took place North of J&K as the JF-17s tried to 'push' the M2000s in a 'Red on Red'. The JF-17's NRIET KLJ-7 PD radar did not do well against the M2000s. The JF-17s main job was to keep the M2000s tied up and not move south.
A pair of M21 Bison was scrambled towards the north edge of the Central axis. Another pair was scrambled south west. Abhinandan was part of the SW vector.
The IAF did not have any AWACS on station, the PAF had a Saab 2000 ERIEYE 100 km at 30,000 feet, which controlled the battle space out to 150 Km+ inside India, guiding the HiTech F-16s positioning for Ambushing IAF jets in a designated kill zone in south J&K.
In central Axis, the the F-16s climbed to 40,000 feet and went supersonic. The JF-17s and Mir III/Vs released their payloads out of range due the threat of the M2000s north east of them, whom the JF-17s had not checked effectively
The PAF carried out Comm jamming, which was effective in places. With no AWACS the the IACCS's vectored 2 Su-30MKIs towards Poonch Rajouri. The PAF communication intercepted on the ERIEYE showed that the PAF was vary of the upgraded M2000s moving south.
There were 2x PAF 4 aircraft F-16 formations, one at 40,000 feet and the other undetected at 10-15,000 feet, approaching Nowshera. The plan was to fire the the first volley of AMRAAMS by the 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet, targeting the approaching Su-30MKIs
As the Su-30MKIs would engage in defensive manoeuvring, the second formation of 4 x F-16s at 15,000 feet (which had just finished a LGB run), would target the Su-30MKIs with a second volley of AMRAAMs
The Su-30MKIs picked up the higher pair of F-16s at 35-40,000 feet and anticipated the launch in a 'Red on Red', also cautioned by the GC The Su-30s cranked to reduce their forward travel and being in a position to outrun the AMRAAM's kinematics.
The Su-30MKI's did not get a launch command on their own R27 and RVV-AE AAMs due the differential in the snap up launch, with the F-16s going cold after launching their AMRAAMs
The timely cranking and the chaff helped the Su-30MKIs outmaneuver the AMRAAMs. 5 AIM-120C-5 s were fired on the Sukhois with no hit....
Meanwhile Abhinandan and his No 2 closed into the lower pair of F-16s abeam Nowshera, who were climbing to 25,000 feet to target the Sukhois in a flanking move
It was a 'red on red' for Abhinandan as he was picked up, but pressed on his attack after manually locking his R-73 on a F-16. He fired and turned back. One F-16 was hit and went down. Abhi was hit by an AMRAAM fired by a F-16, ejecting successfuly
Three chutes were reported in the area, with widespread reporting by ISPR and Pal handles that they had three pilots in custody. A parachute with Indian colours was seen coming down. For info the C-9 chute on the F-16 seat has white, orange and green colours
The PAF surprised the IAF by launching AAMs from inside Azad Kashmir. The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF AAMs, which did not get launch commands. Keeping the M2000s away from the F-16s was a priority for the PAF.
Abhinandan's act of engaging the lower pair of F-16s disrupted their plan to shoot down an IAF Sukhoi. Abhi scored the first F-16 kill by a Mig-21.

This looks like it came straight from a Bollywood movie.......I have heard BS Dhanoa interview in which he said that IAF awacs were airborne and they recorded everything, even the downing of F-16, how could you say that IAF had no AWACS airborne.