Why is Pakistan's missile program not as diverse?

[Judge]

In a nutshell.. Pakistani parlimentarians are rarely bothered enough due to low intellectual capacity about such issues. At best their focus on defence systems comes from hearing news.. for e.g the only time they actually thought about SAMs was when drones started attacking the northwest.. or Radar systems when the May 2 raid happened. Otherwise they could be least bothered and would rather just write the military a blank cheque(as the military has engineered the system in that way).

Its the same in India, but that is why the Bureaucrats are there. They are the true power (in India).

 

[amardeep mishra]

@Oscar

btw,did you happen to go through two of the latest radar systems revealed by LRDE in def expo 2014?namely arudhra and ashwin?both of them feature DBF(digital beam forming)- something unprecedented in any indian designed AESA/PESA so far.This allows impressive control of beams emanating from every single element as you now have got A/D converter attached to every radiating element!
arudra has an instrumented range of 400kms and can track more than 200 targets at any given time whereas ashwin is a light weight AESA than has a range of 200kms and can track >200 targets at any given time.
This is the first time when LRDE has designed a truly "multi-functional" AESA capable of performing a variety of tasks simultaneously
Since someone just above mentioned the need for pakistan to have a SAM system,i would like to add that SAM can not be designed without designing an effective radar system

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

btw,did you happen to go through two of the latest radar systems revealed by LRDE in def expo 2014?namely arudhra and ashwin?both of them feature DBF(digital beam forming)- something unprecedented in any indian designed AESA/PESA so far.This allows impressive control of beams emanating from every single element as you now have got A/D converter attached to every radiating element!
arudra has an instrumented range of 400kms and can track more than 200 targets at any given time whereas ashwin is a light weight AESA than has a range of 200kms and can track >200 targets at any given time.
This is the first time when LRDE has designed a truly "multi-functional" AESA capable of performing a variety of tasks simultaneously
Since someone just above mentioned the need for pakistan to have a SAM system,i would like to add that SAM can not be designed without designing an effective radar system

I did, as I have mentioned earlier.. the payoff of having infrastructure from the ground up for "scratch to finish" is starting to show up now.

Pakistan's SAM hardware is sourced from abroad.. and the underlying C3I network then made locally.

 

[amardeep mishra]

@Oscar

have you seen these pics yet?

 

[SQ8]

Its the same in India, but that is why the Bureaucrats are there. They are the true power (in India).

That is because the foundations of the ICS are much older than those for political thought.

@Oscar

have you seen these pics yet?

Have now. Refer to this place.. and how I mentioned hardware from abroad.. software local.
Network Centric System

Although in reality there is much more to the system shown.. but then again.. thats my own career(if rather short) experience and not public.

 

[sathya]

I welcome the-deterrent to join this discussion about missiles done in initial pages..
To make this even more interesting ..

Good thread., would like this to be role model for others too

 

[Donatello]

@Oscar

have you seen these pics yet?

Interesting......building a radar is the easy part. The idea is to make it relevant enough in a ECM/EW battlefield.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Interesting......building a radar is the easy part. The idea is to make it relevant enough in a ECM/EW battlefield

I dont think making an advanced AESA with DBF is anything easy,i would really appreciate if you refer to some serious literature
secondly indian C4I system comprises of 4 layers-
1)Sensor layer- various radars,AEROSTAT,EO systems
2)Engagement layer- or weapons layer- ARTY
3)Communication layer-AFNET,satellites etc
4)C2 layer- i.e using IT technologies to sort the sensor input to make sense of the battlefield- it helps a great deal in making quick decisions

@Oscar

this is the newly designed AESA radar ashwin- also revealed in 2014! did you know i knew of the existence of this very radar all the way since 2012! Notice the relative size of this radar and itz instrumented range and target handling capacity

@Oscar

here are couple of few more details about the new radar. What is radar development on the other side of the border/??

 

[SQ8]

What is radar development on the other side of the border/??

No development in terms of hardware. Most of it is off the shelf or procured. Any development is either processing or software related(such as upgrading processing of the older TPS-43s or other Chinese/French systems). Development is focused on net centric systems.. ensuring that every sensor is available to any asset at any time.

To sum it up, if it is relevant.. a JF-17 should be able to get information on a target in its AO picked up by a mobile radar of the Pakistan Army.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Development is focused on net centric systems.. ensuring that every sensor is available to any asset at any time

Firstly what is the level or layer of pakistani NCW?for instance indian NCW aims to be a 4 layer system and to be honest it'd take another 5-6 years before it is 100% operational(it is hardly 40-50% in place).
secondly dont you think pakistan lacks in "communication" layer and it'll have trouble coordinating between it forces spread over vast regions(that's the reason why IN has their dedicated satelilte ) and soon IAF and IA will have hteir dedicated communication satellites

 

[SQ8]

Firstly what is the level or layer of pakistani NCW?for instance indian NCW aims to be a 4 layer system and to be honest it'd take another 5-6 years before it is 100% operational(it is hardly 40-50% in place).
secondly dont you think pakistan lacks in "communication" layer and it'll have trouble coordinating between it forces spread over vast regions(that's the reason why IN has their dedicated satelilte ) and soon IAF and IA will have hteir dedicated communication satellites

Elaborate on layer, not sure in what sense do you mean.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Elaborate on layer, not sure in what sense do you mean.

secondly indian C4I system comprises of 4 layers-
1)Sensor layer- various radars(both mono static and multi-static systems),AEROSTAT,EO systems
2)Engagement layer- or weapons layer- ARTY
3)Communication layer-AFNET,satellites etc
4)C2 layer- i.e using IT technologies to sort the sensor input to make sense of the battlefield- it helps a great deal in making quick decisions.
hope this helps?
Does pakistani NCW includes all these 4 layers?and my question was specifically targeted towards the communication layer(because pakistan lacks a dedicated comm sat for armed forces)

 

[SQ8]

secondly indian C4I system comprises of 4 layers-
1)Sensor layer- various radars(both mono static and multi-static systems),AEROSTAT,EO systems
2)Engagement layer- or weapons layer- ARTY
3)Communication layer-AFNET,satellites etc
4)C2 layer- i.e using IT technologies to sort the sensor input to make sense of the battlefield- it helps a great deal in making quick decisions.
hope this helps?
Does pakistani NCW includes all these 4 layers?and my question was specifically targeted towards the communication layer(because pakistan lacks a dedicated comm sat for armed forces)

1 & 2) Complete sensor data synchronization , refer to my link above. Data from radar systems..both static and mobile..mobile observers, AEW and even from fighter sensors is packaged into the system.

3) An AFNET type system exists which is based on a combination of hybrid microwave, ground based links along with Sat backup if need. The diff from Indian AFNET is that it is NOT independent throughout and shares infra with other military comm links.

4) the link above should give an idea, but suffice to say that it is comprehensive.

Links are taken via off board sats for dedicated comm channels. Although PAKSAT-1R was supposed to be a means for it, currently the sat link is NOT via a Pakistani sat.

 

[Bossman]

because Pakistan has no building blocks neither the infra. to start from scratch.

Only fools like DRDO want to do every thing from scratch and consequently fail in every thing. It is all about economies of scale and items that are not readily available off the shelf. It does not make sense to have every thing indigenous if the item is readily accessible, it is not prone to sanctions, there no need to create a local manufacturing base and it is cheaper to buy than creating from scratch. Also you will be surprised at the size and sophistication of Pakistani military-industrial complex.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Only fools like DRDO want to do every thing from scratch and consequently fail in every thing. It is all about economies of scale and items that are not readily available off the shelf. It does not make sense to have every thing indigenous if the item is readily accessible, it is not prone to sanctions, there no need to create a local manufacturing base and it is cheaper to buy than creating from scratch. Also you will be surprised at the size and sophistication of Pakistani military-industrial complex.

That is not true,based on their research footprint,it is not true at all- they've developed various technologies ranging from food processing ,metallurgical processes like vaccum assisted epoxy resin moulding to advanced 8-channel TRMM designs being used in indian designed AESA radars. You should never be IGNORANT of what is happening around you. Go to their site or attend their seminars and read a couple of their patents or research papers- perhaps that would give you some idea- i can understand patent filing is not at all the research culture of pakistan

@Oscar

this is the radar that i actually worked on(although for a minor period during my intern).It was designed way back in 90s and did you know the most important component of this radar aka the DUAL MODE FERRITE PHASE SHIFTER was patented by a IIT delhi professor.Not only that,this radar has gone through 5-stages of iteration,i.e the current radar being procurred by the IAF is actually the 5th iteration of base rajendra that was developed in early 90s!LRDE has obviously moved well ahead of the tehnical complexities of rajendra radar,but it provided the foundations of phased array radar development in india,consequently,various advanced AESAs were developed by LRDE like the "L-STAR" project,"UTTAM-project","ASHWINI" and "ARUDHRA"

It is the weapons locating radar based on rajendra and just like rajendra it features 5000 DMPS