Why is Pakistan's missile program not as diverse?

[amardeep mishra]

Notice that the weight of the warhead is what determines throw weight.. and range.

To be honest oscar,the throw weight of the missile is mainly determined by two factors-
1)the mass fraction of the missile i.e how efficient is the fuel(HTBP and other similar solid fuels offers mass fraction of 93-96%) whereas cryogenic engine with LOX and LOH offers 83%(remember the lower the percentage the more payload the rocket can carry)
2)the degree of use of composites in the missile
To some extent one can miniaturize the systems by implementing MEMS based sensors and actuators however those two are the main reasons.
Hence to increase the payload of the missile to 3 tonnes(without increasing the total weight by a huge margin: for instance the overall weight of A-5 is 50 tonnes whereas A-6 will have only 56 tonnes,whereas A-6 will be able to carry almost THRICE the payload of A-5)- you you'd have to have some serious knowledge of metallurgy and composites

@Oscar

but do you think people at DRDL,ASL or RCI are any less paranoid?i mean they too let out a great deal of their projects in the form of papers and patents(this year DRDO filed close to 200 patents,although it is far lesser as compared to chinese giants like ZTE or huawei who filed close to 2700 patents annually,however it is steadily increasing),HAL too filed close to 450 patents this year- i dont think that HAL or DRDO are any less paranoid(if thats what you were alluding to)
As for the rest of your post,i really could never comprehend as to why pakistani research is mired in so much secrecy- over this side of the border things take place in a much different manner!

 

[SQ8]

To be honest oscar,the throw weight of the missile is mainly determined by two factors-
1)the mass fraction of the missile i.e how efficient is the fuel(HTBP and other similar solid fuels offers mass fraction of 93-96%) whereas cryogenic engine with LOX and LOH offers 83%(remember the lower the percentage the more payload the rocket can carry)
2)the degree of use of composites in the missile
To some extent one can miniaturize the systems by implementing MEMS based sensors and actuators however those two are the main reasons.
Hence to increase the payload of the missile to 3 tonnes(without increasing the total weight by a huge margin: for instance the overall weight of A-5 is 50 tonnes whereas A-6 will have only 56 tonnes,whereas A-6 will be able to carry almost THRICE the payload of A-5)- you you'd have to have some serious knowledge of metallurgy and composites

There is a department here that is dedicated to that, but I would have no idea what(if any) advances or progress they might be making. Again, the hush hush means that either there is really something going on .. or nothing at all. The biggest issue that pushes projects to the latter category of being existent only on files is the overwhelming presence of unqualified military officers being given all managerial positions.

but do you think people at DRDL,ASL or RCI are any less paranoid?i mean they too let out a great deal of their projects in the form of papers and patents(this year DRDO filed close to 200 patents,although it is far lesser as compared to chinese giants like ZTE or huawei who filed close to 2700 patents annually,however it is steadily increasing),HAL too filed close to 450 patents this year- i dont think that HAL or DRDO are any less paranoid(if thats what you were alluding to)
As for the rest of your post,i really could never comprehend as to why pakistani research is mired in so much secrecy- over this side of the border things take place in a much different manner!

Not exactly, the level of paranoia is actually less on the Indian side. Perhaps it has to do with the higher levels of accountability required within the civilian setup as compared to the "buck stops here" attitude prevalent on the Pakistani side.

 

[amardeep mishra]

@Oscar

when i was talking about throw-weight i considered an optimal trajectory(that trajectory being constant),while rest other two variables can change

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

when i was talking about throw-weight i considered an optimal trajectory(that trajectory being constant),while rest other two variables can change

I understand your point. I certainly have my doubts whether a MIRV system exists on any Pakistani missile or as such in an advanced stage.. yet at the same time I would not rule it out. The latter doubts have both to do with the requirements for such a system from both a technical and geo-strategic PoV.

There is a lesser requirement for flexible targeting between the two neighbours as compared to say India vs China.
there are set levels, set targets at those levels for which the existing delivery systems coupled with upgrades to make them more survivable are simply sufficient(at least in the view of R&D folk in Pakistan).


I left this industry(and contacts as such) two years ago and never looked back the month after I heard this comment regarding a query I had on the exclusion of a requirement I felt was necessary for a particular system.

"We are not doing it because India does not have it".

At the point, I realized that short sightedness is ingrained within the R&D mentality in Pakistan.. hence other than the fortuitous exceptions that do manage to develop something useful or extraordinary.. the focus will always be to match India and never to be one step ahead. This has its roots within the same Paranoia mentioned earlier, paranoia of India's greater purchasing power which will(in panic) simply get better technology via cash even if there is a slight leap ahead.

 

[Sinnerman108]

How about Pakistan faces only one type of threat and that too is not very far away ?

 

[amardeep mishra]

@Oscar

two important things that naturally comes to my mind are-
1)the industrial maturity of pakistan- i will explain this concept in a very simple manner- for instance if you are working on an engineering project lets say a very rudimentary bi-static radar then you would need frequency mixers,oscillators 3dB attenuators etc etc- where would you source them from?Similarly lets suppose if pakistan decides to manufacture a SSBN,it would require hell lot more,in terms of a highly miniaturized PWR capable of sustaining 50g of shock,turbines,steam generators,pressurizers,special DMR-249/249A grade of steel,and various other sub-systems(i dont think there are any institute or company that can manufacture any of these in pakistan at the moment).If the local industry(both pvt and public) is mature enough then they can play a crucial role in the project and supply various of these sub-systems
2)second point which have been going on in my mind for sometime is,over here in India we have SEPARATE LABS for separate disciplines,for instance LRDE deals exclusively with radars and they've filed a great deal of patents as well(most remarkably their 8-channel TRMM design),similarly RCI deals only with seeker designs and they have various seekers in their research portfolio,similalry DMRL deals exclusively with metallurgical research(and they too have various metallurgical processes to their credit ranging from titanium sponge extraction from TiCl4 to even single crystal blades).
How do you think pakistan manages all that?and what are "various" pakistani labs specializing in various fields?

At the point, I realized that short sightedness is ingrained within the R&D mentality in Pakistan.. hence other than the fortuitous exceptions that do manage to develop something useful or extraordinary.. the focus will always be to match India and never to be one step ahead. This has its roots within the same Paranoia mentioned earlier, paranoia of India's greater purchasing power which will(in panic) simply get better technology via cash even if there is a slight leap ahead.

oscar,i appreciate your frankness,but to be honest,i personally feel the urgent need for a matured industry to design and develop various engineering systems.I have actually been to a few DRDO seminars and know the research culture- it is not at all aimed at pakistan(while IA might still view pakistan as itz primary enemy),let me write here in no uncertain terms that,in almost all of DRDO seminars i attended,in none of them, they mentioned pakistan,although they were frequently mentioning china and the way chinese are ferociously filing patents.From GTRE to LRDE everyone fears chinese ,one research engineer(he was working on phased array radars) i talked to even went on to say that - "those days aint far when we will be using Chinese protocols in industrial communication"- he stressed on the need of indigenous research

 

[SQ8]

How do you think pakistan manages all that?and what are "various" pakistani labs specializing in various fields?

Before we do a little research on what is available openly, Ill repeat verbatim what a senior official told me regarding the philosophy they have "Only R&D what you cannot purchase from the open market".

Starting with that philosophy, you can move onto what facilities exist at government levels.

But here is the problem. Take this snapshot, it is likely that this area has over 30 facilities that has everything from micron level scanning, banks of 3d printers, CnC fabrication, MEMs fabrication(purchased from abroad).. along with a security.
From this shot, all it looks like is just a residential area, infact if you go there it is a residential area... the only giveaways happen when you start seeing barriers in certain locations, guys in plainclothes with earpieces that unless you are looking for them you wont know. And this is a shot from a hustling and bustling city.

This for e.g. was designed and built within a double basement facility that had this on top.

So how do you identify labs? How do you know what is going on when the parliament and civilian government is NOT authorized to view what is being allocated and for what to these institutions.
National Engineering and Scientific Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
National Development Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which is why I pointed you to a university whole faculty includes people who have been part of the above.. and hence you get certain clues as to what might be worked upon.

Another thing is the level of access Pakistan has to facilities in China. Which is unprecedented.. take this for e.g.
Ta'eerun, Software Defined Radio (SDR), SDR
The Radio system listed on top by this private firm(indecently related to the University I posted in the previous post) was designed at the firm.. from the boards, casing, supply.. and software.. throughout..
The manufacturing of it however was outsourced to a Chinese firm which created the designed product and delivered it.

Which brings us back again. Why not do this at home? Well, it could be done.. but when it is cheaper to have it done via outsourcing.. why not do so?
So a lot of your queries regarding the research needed for producing some of the critical components for advanced design gets eliminated from the process when you can simply order off the Chinese "catalogue" or have them make it on order.

So if you would need to invest.. as an example.. say $1 billion to set up a complete MEMs R&D facility.. you can use and design on the Chinese one for around $20 million.
But this has serious disadvantages; for starters.. Pakistan ends up lacking these facilities for shortening the time needed to coordinate design. In addition, the over reliance on the Chinese facilities means that many "gaps" end up appearing when certain technological advances are needed. Which gets exacerbated in case even the Chinese do not have that information or in certain cases are unwilling to share it.


So ill end up to the original premise of your question.. where are all the facilities? Where is the work being done?
One can start here.. and then go through various universities to where the publications keep going on..
Research Publications

But at the end of the day.. there is really nothing going on anywhere.. and a lot going on everywhere.
Not the best policy, not the best answer either.. but that is all I have from my own experience.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

@abadeel

india already has semiconductor manufacturing facilities although on a smaller scale vis-a-vis china.Its a lab under ISRO by the name SCL and they have developed 0.8micron CMOS technologies through indigenous R&D effort.here is their official site-you can look into some of their cutting edge research.
SemiConductor Laboratory (SCL)
secondly india is establishing two brand new FAbs at an estimated cost fo $10bn(one in gujrat and one near delhi)
thirdly ,although india lacks an extensive semiconductor manufacturing facilities(barring a few minor ones like SCL etc),india's research productivity in micro-processor designing is pretty decent,in fact it'd come to you as a surprise that INTEL's 6-core microprocessor was desgined here in bangalore similarly texas instrument's india based R&D lab filed close to 700 patents back in 2012!
India also has couple of the research institutes working in the field of MEMS- in fact my college too has MEMS designing facility(which was very costly when it was established).For more info kindly look into the research publications of RCI(DRDO) and IISC bangalore in the field of MEMS based sensors and actuators designed by indian labs.
RCI even designed 160x160 Focal planar array as a part of their IIR seeker development program,infact a public owned company is coming up at RCI campus in hyd exclusively for the mass manufacturing of FOCAL PLANAR ARRAY- sulfide detectors etc- LWIR and MWIR range
@Oscar

Intel shows off new India-made processor

Company Info | Texas Instruments India

Centre for Nano Science and Engineering (CENSE) - Indian Institute of Science (IISc) - The official website

its a 2009 thread

 

[SQ8]

oscar,i appreciate your frankness,but to be honest,i personally feel the urgent need for a matured industry to design and develop various engineering systems.I have actually been to a few DRDO seminars and know the research culture- it is not at all aimed at pakistan(while IA might still view pakistan as itz primary enemy),let me write here in no uncertain terms that,in almost all of DRDO seminars i attended,in none of them, they mentioned pakistan,although they were frequently mentioning china and the way chinese are ferociously filing patents.From GTRE to LRDE everyone fears chinese ,one research engineer(he was working on phased array radars) i talked to even went on to say that - "those days aint far when we will be using Chinese protocols in industrial communication"- he stressed on the need of indigenous research

You have to understand one underlying and keystone difference between the mindset of the Pakistani "state" and the Indian "state"(at least till recently). The Indian state.. or the Indian establishment/think tank looks beyond Pakistan. It seems a much bigger role in terms of its presence and rightly so is insecure/threatened by China in many ways..economically, technologically and so on. Hence Pakistan(conflict with) for them was a pointless hindrance in achieving this goal of greater role within the world. Which is why pre-26/11 there were VERY active efforts(both in front of but much more behind the curtains) to end the issues and just move on(it is only with the recent changeover that this idea has been completely abandoned due to the overpowering presence of hardliners within the new Think Tank). Hence, India has much greater goals as compared to Pakistan.. India needs its own hardware.. it needs its own R&D facilities and infrastructure.. it needs self sufficiency much more than Pakistan might desire it.

Do I believe that Pakistan does not need the same? Absolutely not, but at the time...whether as a hobsons choice or otherwise.. the Pakistani state has chosen to pursue its R&D strategy as I have given an idea about previously.

 

[amardeep mishra]

So ill end up to the original premise of your question.. where are all the facilities? Where is the work being done?
One can start here.. and then go through various universities to where the publications keep going on..

@Oscar
i raised that simple question because i merey wanted to have a fruitful discussion ,i was also side by side correlating pakistani way of doing things as opposed to how our DRDO and ISRO works.
Now since we have dealt with almost all of the issues(although not all),i would like to know how they source their fundings?i mean aint the fundings slaved to the research productivity of a lab in pakistan just like how it is here in india?e if a lab(or even academic institution) is not producing requisite number of research papers/patents then it will quickly loose relevance and hence the fundings from the central govt- isnt that the case in pakistan too?
and to wrap things up,do you really think a single lab can work on technoogies as varied as from growing directionally solidified crystals/single crystals to lets say your SDR?and are there any research papers associated with the development of that UAV?for instance what exactly was the contribution of GIDS in the project?i mean in terms of
1)composite design?
2)CFD analysis adn writing control laws?
3)propulsion
4)various sensor payloads(SAR,EOs etc)

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

Now since we have dealt with almost all of the issues(although not all),i would like to know how they source their fundings?i mean aint the fundings slaved to the research productivity of a lab in pakistan just like how it is here in india?e if a lab(or even academic institution) is not producing requisite number of research papers/patents then it will quickly loose relevance and hence the fundings from the central govt- isnt that the case in pakistan too?

and to wrap things up,do you really think a single lab can work on technoogies as varied as from growing directionally solidified crystals/single crystals to lets say your SDR?and are there any research papers associated with the development of that UAV?for instance what exactly was the contribution of GIDS in the project?i mean in terms of
1)composite design?
2)CFD analysis adn writing control laws?
3)propulsion
4)various sensor payloads(SAR,EOs etc)

The first part is NO. When it comes to NDC and NESCOM..their budgets are essentially a fixed allocation given out by the government to the parent organization. From that point on the power of the government to decide and even know how much goes to which lab degrades on an exponential level.

Remember I mentioned earlier that ACCOUNTABILITY has MUCH more precedence in India than in Pakistan. I can tell you that literally million are lost in corruption because there is no accountability within these organizations down to the lab level. There are "ghost" labs operating within the system who equipment is mothballed(and money was made when it was purchased) and projects exist on a file.. that is taken out once a month, signed, countersigned, stamped and put back.. with "progress" noted.

 

[amardeep mishra]

When it comes to NDC and NESCOM..their budgets are essentially a fixed allocation given out by the government to the parent organization.

@Oscar

since you just mentioned these two labs,isnt the issue of funding of these state labs raised in pakistani parliament?i mean ,isnt it the case that pakistani parliamentarians ask these questions to defence minister of pakistan?like how our def minister is grilled in LOK SABHA in question and hour sessions?
And how come SUPARCO that happens to be one of the prominent labs in pakistan have so abysmally meagre funding- $7mn for 2013-2014(on the contrary the funding for their indian counterpart ISRO stood at $1.2bn)- isnt it ignored in pakistani military way of thinking?

 

[SQ8]

The second part is

1).. Done in house on purchased system via open market.

2). Done in house on CATIA, control laws done in house but flight computer "copied" from one from IAI

3) Rotax bought in from different sources.. or similar "knock-off" from European states

4) All sourced from various vendors.. integration done in house.

@Oscar

since you just mentioned these two labs,isnt the issue of funding of these state labs raised in pakistani parliament?i mean ,isnt it the case that pakistani parliamentarians ask these questions to defence minister of pakistan?like how our def minister is grilled in LOK SABHA in question and hour sessions?
And how come SUPARCO that happens to be one of the prominent labs in pakistan have so abysmally meagre funding- $7mn for 2013-2014(on the contrary the funding for their indian counterpart ISRO stood at $1.2bn)- isnt it ignored in pakistani military way of thinking?

In a nutshell.. Pakistani parlimentarians are rarely bothered enough due to low intellectual capacity about such issues. At best their focus on defence systems comes from hearing news.. for e.g the only time they actually thought about SAMs was when drones started attacking the northwest.. or Radar systems when the May 2 raid happened. Otherwise they could be least bothered and would rather just write the military a blank cheque(as the military has engineered the system in that way).

 

[sibghatullah]

Surface to air missile technology is must for Pakistan .

 

[StormShadow]

but do you think people at DRDL,ASL or RCI are any less paranoid?

Do you know what type of work is going on in RCI and ASL? I mean...on what they are focusing now and next major thing that we would be seeing?