Why does our Navy fail so horribly?

[Aamir Hussain]

What about surface ships, Doesn't PN need surface ships to have a strong footing, PN doctrine seems to float around Subs

To answer your question -- we need to see waht is the primary mission of PN and the most likely enemy it will face and hence the weapons systems/platform it will have to be on the look out for.

The primary misson is to keep its harbour and shipping lanes open through sea denial.
Protection of the EEZ in peace and war time (This will be relgated to secondary task once hostilties breakout.)
Anti Piracy duties down to Horn of Africa. (This will be abandoned during war time)

PN will face a certain blockade of its major ports and can expect interception of its merchant vessels on the high seas as far west and south of Oman.

The weapon of choice for IN would be the Carrier Group (S) stationed some 300+ miles form KHI. The defensive screen of this task force against surface and sub surface attack would be the subs, ASW helos of IN and the CAP flown from its air carrier group.

The high seas interception would be carried out by two ship hunting groups.

In such a situation, PN would launch its subs to go for the carrier group and ignore all else. Secondary, strategy would be to launch air strikes from standoff ALCM's. The trick would be to launch enough ALCM's to overwhelm the defense and alow one or two ALCM to damage the carrier for it to withdraw.

Off course, the Carrier Group would also be launching strikes against ports and shipping in and around our main harbours and target of opportunity. PAF CAP's backed up by AWACS will play a pivotal role to put up effective defense. The sortie rate that can be sustained form the carrier group would not be more than couple of strikes per day from two to three a/c per sortie. This is based upon the number of a/c available on board the Carriers, turnaround time, maintenance of a/c, attrition, an the need to keep an effective CAP on station during an interdiction sortie etc.

Another factor that PAF is quite aware of is the possiblity of SU's with air-refueling capabiltiy making a strike from the Balochistan coast. Hence the need to station AWACS in the south.

I feel that PN will form hunter/killer groups based puon three boat patrols, patroling the sea lanes along the Balochistan Coast.

I am not going to go into details of how the other elements such as MPA's from both PN and IN will play a part or what would the Qing class do when inducted. There are details that I am privvy to but would not want ot divulge at any point in time, openly.

My pure conjecture above is based upon a limited war (Not lasting more than fifteen days)

 

[killerx]

the turks are our brother and so are iranis so stop comparing us with them PN bulit and buys whats good againts india and pakistan has small budget so start paying taxes and killing corupt polition zardari

 

[Nishan_101]

So call me!!! I am there...

 

[T90TankGuy]

So call me!!! I am there...

i don't believe you understood what i wrote.
when i said "someone will call you on it " it meant that is you post something which is not facts or realistic then someone will call your bluff.

 

[American Pakistani]

The simple answer to thread starter is that for better navy Pakistan need money & for money Pakistan need to accelerate its economy by any means. Educate the people & make the country heaven for international investments. Once economy start growing the military & navy budget will go up automatically. So it all depends on the country's economy.

 

[Imran Khan]

PN is no-1 corrupt force in our forces and i believe it feel free to disagree .

 

[blackops]

PN is no-1 corrupt force in our forces and i believe it feel free to disagree .

I doubt it they get only some changes in form of money what will they steal from that also the PN has been the most neglected force due attention should be given to it and a good amount of resources. Too

 

[T90TankGuy]

PN is no-1 corrupt force in our forces and i believe it feel free to disagree .

imran bhai any clue as to how much of the defense budget is allocated to the PN?

 

[Contrarian]

As far as the battle groups are concerned, yes they have an advatage of projecting air power over long ranges. At the same time, one must appreciate that the use of carrier based airpower was only used sucessfully when there was no offensive capabiltiy of the enemy against them. Predominantly, US has used this tool effectively against weak opposition. UK had a tough time trying to project airpower over Falklands and lost a number of surface units despite operating on the extreme edge of the mission ranges of Argentine a/c.

There are pros and cons of all types of weapons systems. At the height of the cold war, the biggest threat to US Carrier groups were from long range land based supersonic Backfire bombers of Soviet Union and not the subs. They had calculated that their ASW screens would in time detect and eliminate the sub surface threat. The game changer was the supersonic platform and the cruise missile (ALCM) carried by the Backfires. Enough a/c launched against a carrier group would eventually overwhelm the defensive screens -- that was the calculation by the Americans. I am sure you know this quite well -- I mean the cold war;-)

That is true only in the context of not having overall air superiority. Indian Navy also operates dedicated maritime attack sqdrns from land bases. This apart, the IAF also has numerical and technological superiority over PAF(I do NOT mean air superiority however!). But it does make sparing of planes and relief from air attacks from both IAF and IN very difficult.

As far as your question, yes I do recollect "Brasstacks" and also know fully what dividend India got out of it after spending millions of dollars on deploying assets that far out to the sea, for such a long time.

Please elucidate

 

[Last Hope]

In the past, Pakistan Navy has always proven itself to the aggressor despite the numbers.
The submarines out there stopped a third war-front in 1965 and 1971.

But today's warfare is something different and Pakistan needs to focus on it's Navy with immense power.
Turkey and others will take some days to come to Pakistan's aid, and who knows what the situation might be?
Like our Air Force, independent and always replying with an iron fist, navy must be capable enough too.
This should be done without cutting the budget of Air Force and Land Forces, it might effect them, which are more crucial.
Defence budget must be increased from PKR 100 to PKR 135.

However, it will deeply effect the already shaken economy. The best option currently is use the PKR 20 wisely, which the navy is doing. Once the economy (soon, In sha Allah) starts to grow, there would be more cash available for Defence, and I'd say, Air Force and Navy should ask for separate budgets.

To take the blame, political (mafia) leaders come in again. If it weren't for them to steal the budget, there would have been far more cash available for each sector of government. Make the defence budget alone above PKR 220. The best thing Pakistan can do is, freeze the Swiss accounts and transfer all the money into national treasury. The subjected dacoits have already been the cause of loss of millions, life standards and deaths of thousands, misery in life of countless others. Now they should starve to death with zero balance in all their accounts.

 

[blackops]

In the past, Pakistan Navy has always proven itself to the aggressor despite the numbers.
The submarines out there stopped a third war-front in 1965 and 1971.

But today's warfare is something different and Pakistan needs to focus on it's Navy with immense power.
Turkey and others will take some days to come to Pakistan's aid, and who knows what the situation might be?
Like our Air Force, independent and always replying with an iron fist, navy must be capable enough too.
This should be done without cutting the budget of Air Force and Land Forces, it might effect them, which are more crucial.
Defence budget must be increased from PKR 100 to PKR 135.

However, it will deeply effect the already shaken economy. The best option currently is use the PKR 20 wisely, which the navy is doing. Once the economy (soon, In sha Allah) starts to grow, there would be more cash available for Defence, and I'd say, Air Force and Navy should ask for separate budgets.

To take the blame, political (mafia) leaders come in again. If it weren't for them to steal the budget, there would have been far more cash available for each sector of government. Make the defence budget alone above PKR 220. The best thing Pakistan can do is, freeze the Swiss accounts and transfer all the money into national treasury. The subjected dacoits have already been the cause of loss of millions, life standards and deaths of thousands, misery in life of countless others. Now they should starve to death with zero balance in all their accounts.

what did your navy do in 1971 please educate me on that part your oil supplies were stopped there was a complete naval blockage karachi harbor was damaged bad what did it do ????

 

[Tshering22]

Listen, there is nothing fail about PN. PN is essentially a coastal maritime Naval force and there is nothing to be embarrassed about it. Israel's Navy also is a coastal force. Now this is not some term coined by me but by professionals in the defense business. It essentially means that you are not going to go miles to invade someone but rather stick to your shores.

I think PN is doing a fine job defending Pakistani coastline from any external aggression. You are getting timely supplies from China and in some cases from Italy and US too. What more do you want? Since you have a limited portion of the Arabian Sea, you're guarding it very well. Just be content guys. And stand proud of your Navy.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Its just has to do with FUNDING

Pakistan Navy - lacks financing from Pakistan Budget as traditionally Pakistani view has been who will dock in Karachi our main enemy is on our border they will likely walk over and try to invade

But in the world has changed , we have to consider having a Strong navy as , people can park 5-10 ships on docks and they can transfer 80 tanks on Karachi or Gwadar ports and come from backdoors

Its important to have a Strong Navy also in case we need to support friends in Africa or Europe or Asia

Nation needs hands and soliders to defend - so funding goes to Soliders and Tanks
Nation needs airforce to protect soldiers and tanks (of course they are sleeping occasionally when drone attacks)

Then its the Navy that just has to protect `trade interest`or take over islands to build strategic airports that is not our prioirity but ....

We need to build a strong navy to make sure no other ship or aircraft carrier comes with in 1000 km of Pakistan shores with intent of threat

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Funding <->Doctrine, which came first? The Pakistani Navy's sole mission is to:

1) Defend Pakistan's EEZ
2) Keep maritime lanes open

Thats it, the Pakistan Marines & Army will counter attack any Beach-heads. Pakistan will not/ should not try to match any enemy with manpower. the quality is more important.

PN is already doing it job, how successful they are will depend in war time.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Plus the example of USA harassing Iran via Aircraft carrier is a good example , tomorrow lets say they start to harass Pakistani trade ships ?

You cannot be free nation unless your Airforce and Navy is free