Was Ataturk spy for British against Ottoman Empire?

[Pakistanisage]

Let's make this clear, nobody would be here if we didn't like pakistan or her people but Raptor way, way passed this point. He abused our values just because they don't suit him and he meddled with our inside affairs he didn't have a clue about.
People don't know anything about what we did to saved ourselves from utter destruction and what sacrifices we gave, what pains we endured. But same ignorant people feel free to curse some of us and a part of our history. Which isn't acceptable and which isn't open for discussion.

Someone calls your mother a prostitute you do not discuss with him you beat him to the ground.
Simple as that.

@deno, i told zulkarneyn numerous times, those were cold war times. Today's that we enjoyed so much isn't about AKP it's more about end of cold war. People are mocking at us because of this because of last CHP adminstration's refusal for the change. In 1980 people fvcking wellcomed the coup.

Turkey is very Popular with most Pakistanis. To most Pakistanis, Turkey represents a modern country. Most Pakistanis want Pakistan to be a modern State. But our idea of Modernity may or may not be in line with what that words means to you. I can only tell you what I consider a modern Pakistan. To me the vision of Modernity means a Democratically free Pakistan Whose citizens are highly educated and Scientific in their orientation but do not sacrifice their Islamic roots. That does not mean Pakistanis want a theocracy of Mullahs running the country. Not at all. To the contrary most Pakistanis here will tell you that the ignorant kind of mullahs have done more damage to this country than the western values. We respect true Islam and Islamic Scholars. We want a democratically, militarily, economically strong Pakistan that emphasizes Scientific education, a strong industrial, manufacturing and agricultural base. We want all this without sacrificing our true Islamic values.

If your ideas of modernity are same then we are on the same page.


BTW, I agree with you that this is a bogus thread and any attack on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is highly inappropriate on a Pakistani Forum because that is insensitive to our Turkish brothers. Additionally, the arguments made do not hold up to the factual history. Raptor is simply TROLLING here.

 

[Rafi]

Ataturk was a great Muslim, Turk and human being, he tried successfully to transform Turkey into a modern country, but his followers lost the plot when they started repressive acts against practicing Muslims. I am a social liberal, but if a girl has the choice to wear a mini-skirt - she should also have the right to wear a hijab, that is what true freedom is.

Let's make this clear, nobody would be here if we didn't like pakistan or her people but Raptor way, way passed this point. He abused our values just because they don't suit him and he meddled with our inside affairs he didn't have a clue about.

People don't know anything about what we did to saved ourselves from utter destruction and what sacrifices we gave, what pains we endured. But same ignorant people feel free to curse some of us and a part of our history. Which isn't acceptable and which isn't open for discussion.

Someone calls your mother a prostitute you do not discuss with him you beat him to the ground.
Simple as that.

@deno, i told zulkarneyn numerous times, those were cold war times. Today's that we enjoyed so much isn't about AKP it's more about end of cold war. People are mocking at us because of this because of last CHP adminstration's refusal for the change. In 1980 people fvcking wellcomed the coup.

This is a major highway bang in our capital Islamabad, Pakistanis have a high opinion of Ataturk - do let not a troll, who may not even be Pakistani, get in the way of brothers.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Double Post.

 

[Rafi]

 

[cabatli_53]

About Zulkarneyn:



He is close-minded and obsessed with Kemalists and Ataturk. I wouldn't recommend you to take him serious. Just read the thread, you'll see.

Great percentage of AKP voters (Statics clearly indicate) and No need to mention CHP and MHP voters and many others always represent their love, respect and fidelity to M. Kemal Ataturk, independance soul and his friends achievements at everywhere (streets, home, abroad) but Only some small ideological group specially educated who calls everybody brainwashed despite official Russian/British/Ottoman archieves, As If they typed their own history in accordance with their ideological background/neccesities, While They prefer cursing independance soul of Turkey, M. Kemal Ataturk and his friends, Commanders, democratic and social ambitious of young Turkey. They have some basic sentences to use and Whenever they read the name of Kemal, They start repeating same sentences (It isn't important wheather you typed/mentioned a similar thing about what they accused you) like Kemalists, Cunta, Kemal Prayer, Infidel, Racist, Dictator, Jew, Greek, Gay...bla bla bla. Despite Ataturk died in 1938, They like loading all wrongs of 90 years old republic on the shoulders of M. Kemal Ataturk. Those type people are so less that You can hardly find them on streets in Turkey. It is clear in this and other forums as well. They are just heroes of forums on keyboard, not on their country.


AKP work office

 

[Sashan]

When outsiders look at Turkey, they see

1. Turkey is a secular country
2. Turkey and religious radicalism/fundamentalism are like water and oil
3. Turkey is one of the growing economical powers
4. Turkey is modernized when compared to many countries except in Europe and few other countries outside of Europe.

Isn't that an accomplishment? And Kemal Ataturk deserves all credit. As for someone calling him British spy, it does not even warrant a comment.

 

[Cirit]

Many older generation Turks hate Ataturk. A man I met here in the US, that used to be engineer in Turkish Army named Ayub probably in his 50's now had told me this.

To hear his opinion on this would be excellent. He is a borderline genius.


For me Ataturk was not a good or bad, but a man with noble intentions.

Pls ask that Ayub, why did he leave the army? I bet, he did not leave, he was spotted and banned because of being a Feto militant.

Want to learn some about Feto (click)

 

[Cirit]

Mate i have wasted my whole day taking their bs and trying to answer in a respectful way. And i can take much, because i know a bunch of fanatics whose only weapon is curse and flame cannot bring the truth down. If you read the whole thread you will realize the true face of these Kemalists.

As for your question. The majority of Kemalists vote for the CHP, and last time there was election they got about 25%, so it is not that much. But i also know that these Kemalists try very hard to manipulate via their internet trolls. Many are actually getting paid to spread their propoganda and trick weak minds like Ottomanturk. And they succeed.

Most importantly they don't represent the Muslim Turks. We do...

Ne içiyosun lan sen bu kafa için, sağlıklı beyinden çıkmaz bu zırvalar...
Translation: What do you smoke to get this high, cause healty mind can not BS this much...

 

[Alienoz_TR]

What would have happened if Ataturk was not there?

Kazım Karabekir would have defeated Armenians in the east.
Local militia would have defeated French and Armenian forces in the south.

But western Anatolia would be in the hands of Greeks by now.
Istanbul would be ruled by international consorsium by now.
East Thrace would be Greek as well.

Some may not like him, but he has proven that he is valuable. Political side of his character is more complicated.

 

[LegionnairE]

Is this how you respond to the criticisms of Kemal?

People who suffered were not kemalists. You cant defend Kemal and his ideas by exploiting the blood of others.

But this is what you and your kinds do all the time.

I was referring to Turks in general not only the Kemalists you genius who i am to educate you... just keep cursing

@Alienoz_TR: After Ankara's fall any of those wouldn't matter. If enver pasha wouldn't be so incompetent things could be much, much easier Atatürk wouldn't have to rally troops from the east, probably Turkey's borders would reach to Caspian Sea. Armenia of today wouldn't exist. But again, during the cold war Russia's attack on Turkey would be much more likely, we'll never know

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

Totally correct , but when you said except in europe i would say excluding europe but turkey way more advanced and modernized than , romania , bulgaria , serbia and the others , i went to Turkiye with car and went past romania , bulgaria , serbia etc , they hardly have motorways , their roads are trash , they are slowly starting to build good roads with their EU cash , even their main citys looked way way behind modernized EU countries e.g germany , france etc

When outsiders look at Turkey, they see

1. Turkey is a secular country
2. Turkey and religious radicalism/fundamentalism are like water and oil
3. Turkey is one of the growing economical powers
4. Turkey is modernized when compared to many countries except in Europe and few other countries outside of Europe.

Isn't that an accomplishment? And Kemal Ataturk deserves all credit. As for someone calling him British spy, it does not even warrant a comment.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

I don't know how many Pakistanis like Ataturk or are fond of Turkey's secular nature but i know one thing , if ever there was a leader like Ataturk to rise in Pakistan , his head would be cut off the day he raises it . Pakistan is a country where anyone who speaks against the blasphemy law is murdered and the murderer is showered with rose petals by civilians and lawyers alike like with one their governors and with the minority affairs minister who spoke for minority rights . Nothing in common with what Ataturk stood for .

I just hope The OP and other like minded Pakistanis realise that it is Pakistan that needs to emulate Turkey and NOT the other way round.

 

[Killuminati]

Masha Allah i love the beards in the Pakistani army.

 

[ovarel]

In the last referandum we have all seen the choice of Turkish people. For those who dont know about that referandum,a referandum held in 2010,it had many aspects but mostly was about judiciary. Major changes in judiciary(which banned headscarves all the time,tried to ban Erdoğan and Abdullah Gül etc) offered to the Turkish people and 58% of the participants accepted. Everyone knew that the changes would be a huge blow for the kemalist ideology and its oligarchy.

Then,why kemalists claim that everyone likes Kemal expect for some marginal groups? Their claim has no solid ground. Yes the education system indoctrinates people but still huge part of the population doesnt approve Kemal. But it was really hard to express it. Kemalists used to keep every corner in the country;judiciary,military,media,universities,schools etc. If they understood that you dont like Kemal,you would be fired from all of those institutions. Even in academies,its hard to criticise kemalism let alone criticising Kemal. In 2006,an academician called Atilla Yayla said that kemalism refers to backwardness and that in future people will ask us why you have the statues of this man in every possible corner. The kemalist judiciary sentenced him to 1 year and 3 months in prison and he was fired from his university. Thankfully,they werent able to put him in prison because their power was in decline. So,people who dont like Kemal find a way to deal with this thing. They decided to appear pro-Kemal and only criticise his followers instead. Because Kemal is a cult,you can only criticise him by hiding in his shadow. This is what we may call taqiyye. For example: Bulent Arinç,a member of AKP,told press in Macedonia that Kemal was a great man,a great leader,he loves him etc but 2 weeks later,AKP brought Dersim Massacre to the light. Dersim Massacre used to be referred as 'incident' but Erdoğan said it was a massacre and apologized for it. If Kemal is responsible for a massacre,then how do you name a guy who commited a massacre? Anti-Kemal people dont say things directly but they(We) are hammering his cult day by day.

But many people are still afraid of it. I was in a cab 3 months ago and we were discussing internal politics of Turkey. At the end of the discussion,Kemal had been the subject of the issue and he said that he likes him but not İnönü(the other dictator came after Kemal). I sensed that he was lying and i said i dont like Kemal. Suddenly,he relaxed and told me his real opinion. The more the freedom of expression deepens more people will be expressing their opinions freely.

AKP belives in transformation not in revolution. Also,a strict anti-Kemal stance would alienate kemalists from the state. Btw AKP is now trying to change education system which is the last castle of kemalists.

Turkey is on the path of destroying the cult of Kemal. He will probably stay as a founder(i dont have problem with it) but Turkish state wont give a damn about his old-fashioned positivist ideas anymore. Thats what the majority wants. If our kemalist friends here claim that AKP wil not do that. Well,wait and see.

 

[Quasar]

In the last referandum we have all seen the choice of Turkish people. For those who dont know about that referandum,a referandum held in 2010,it had many aspects but mostly was about judiciary. Major changes in judiciary(which banned headscarves all the time,tried to ban Erdoğan and Abdullah Gül etc) offered to the Turkish people and 58% of the participants accepted. Everyone knew that the changes would be a huge blow for the kemalist ideology and its oligarchy.

Then,why kemalists claim that everyone likes Kemal expect for some marginal groups? Their claim has no solid ground. Yes the education system indoctrinates people but still huge part of the population doesnt approve Kemal. But it was really hard to express it. Kemalists used to keep every corner in the country;judiciary,military,media,universities,schools etc. If they understood that you dont like Kemal,you would be fired from all of those institutions. Even in academies,its hard to criticise kemalism let alone criticising Kemal. In 2006,an academician called Atilla Yayla said that kemalism refers to backwardness and that in future people will ask us why you have the statues of this man in every possible corner. The kemalist judiciary sentenced him to 1 year and 3 months in prison and he was fired from his university. Thankfully,they werent able to put him in prison because their power was in decline. So,people who dont like Kemal find a way to deal with this thing. They decided to appear pro-Kemal and only criticise his followers instead. Because Kemal is a cult,you can only criticise him by hiding in his shadow. This is what we may call taqiyye. For example: Bulent Arinç,a member of AKP,told press in Macedonia that Kemal was a great man,a great leader,he loves him etc but 2 weeks later,AKP brought Dersim Massacre to the light. Dersim Massacre used to be referred as 'incident' but Erdoğan said it was a massacre and apologized for it. If Kemal is responsible for a massacre,then how do you name a guy who commited a massacre? Anti-Kemal people dont say things directly but they(We) are hammering his cult day by day.

But many people are still afraid of it. I was in a cab 3 months ago and we were discussing internal politics of Turkey. At the end of the discussion,Kemal had been the subject of the issue and he said that he likes him but not İnönü(the other dictator came after Kemal). I sensed that he was lying and i said i dont like Kemal. Suddenly,he relaxed and told me his real opinion. The more the freedom of expression deepens more people will be expressing their opinions freely.

AKP belives in transformation not in revolution. Also,a strict anti-Kemal stance would alienate kemalists from the state. Btw AKP is now trying to change education system which is the last castle of kemalists.

Turkey is on the path of destroying the cult of Kemal. He will probably stay as a founder(i dont have problem with it) but Turkish state wont give a damn about his old-fashioned positivist ideas anymore. Thats what the majority wants. If our kemalist friends here claim that AKP wil not do that. Well,wait and see.

please keep entertaining us