Vikramditya & the IAC Vikrant Threat To Pakistan Waters

[indiatester]

would someone translate posts ~#104- 114 to English? no idea what you guys said. or was that the idea??

Not worth translating. You can safely ignore it.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

You are right.
It doesnt add much against the likes of Pakistan and China in a conventional face-off.

However you of all people should know that it still has its uses against Pakistan in other ways! The mere presence of the Carrier near Pakistani Coast would mean PAF would be diverting massive resources to try and sink it. After all sinking an Indian AC would be the biggest morale booster except for probably winning a war. It would ensure a regime survival for PA/PAF Chief as well as Pakistani Govt despite losing the war.

There are multiple means of using this Carrier against Pakistan, however conventional faceoff and regular bombing on Pakistan is not possible before PAF is vastly dimished in size by IAF.

That said, to me it appears the real power of the Carrier lies not in using it but the threat of using it.
It adds quite a bit to IN power projection ability and reach. Not to mention increase our stature internationally.
Secondly, it introduces IN to a real and modern carrier. The Virat is not a proper carrier for modern ages - of around 22,000 tons and harriers.

Vik introduces modern fighter jets and proper carrier ops. Vikrant will be the largest military ship ever built in India. These are I think stepping stones to the Carrier that will actually make a difference in a war, one that can fight a conventional fight against the likes of PAF - the IAC 2. 65,000 tons with Cats.

I disagree. Vikramaditya does provide substantial benefits in conventional face off against Pakistan. The biggest of which it simply opens a new air front at the sea and everything that comes with it. Now you have dedicate AWACS at sea as well. You have to provide air cover for your P3C Orion. You have to run CAP missions to defend against possible air strike against Karachi Harbor.

Secondly many members here seem to believe that it will be limited to carrying 16 mig29k which is simply not true. The wartime complement of a carrier is much greater than its peacetime complement. I can show you the post of a Navy Harrier pilot on another forum saying it will be able to carry 36 mig29k and 8 helis. We already have enough mig 29k to load it to whatever we want to.
Its also provides us a tactical advantage in the sense that it provides us more options. Being an aggresive weapon. We can deploy carrier according to our choice. We might choose to surprise Pakistanis and attack Gwadar using the carrier. What it means for them? Placing sam at Gwadar as well. It is still not a strong power projection tool, but enough for any conflict in IOR.

 

[Contrarian]

I simply meant the limitations on the use of this Carrier as a static floating airbase fighting the PAF. That is sustained conventional fights for air domination.

There are multiple ways in which this carrier would be useful against Pakistan in other ways.

A USN Super carrier can on the other hand act as a static airfield running air domination campaign against a well defended adversary. The key is the size of the Carrier and the Cats.

We cant have that size , economic reasons.
What we can have are cats that increase the loadout and range of the fighters.

And the IAC-2 with Cats would be far more potent than the Vik/IAC-1 because of higher tonnage but most importantly because of cats.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

I simply meant the limitations on the use of this Carrier as a static floating airbase fighting the PAF. That is sustained conventional fights for air domination.

There are multiple ways in which this carrier would be useful against Pakistan in other ways.

A USN Super carrier can on the other hand act as a static airfield running air domination campaign against a well defended adversary. The key is the size of the Carrier and the Cats.

We cant have that size , economic reasons.
What we can have are cats that increase the loadout and range of the fighters.

And the IAC-2 with Cats would be far more potent than the Vik/IAC-1 because of higher tonnage but most importantly because of cats.

As I have said before as well, mig 29k can take off at mtow from Vikramaditya. I can prove it if you want.

USN and Indian carriers are not comparable because of size and roles. USN carriers carry 3-4 squadrons of fighters versus 1 for us. They use strike fighters against we using fighter bombers. So while US fighters do require heavy loadout fighters, we don't since a fleet defence role doesn't require us to be armed to the teeth.

With the difference in roles comes the difference in doctrine. If US were to attack Karachi, they would simply bomb it till they can find any part of it above water, and then they will move in. We, on the other hand, will attack and destroy their ships defending the harbour and pull anchor a safe distance from their airfields and establish a BARCAP, waiting for their fighters to come into the carrier's air defence zone, while we sit tight, patiently waiting as Pakistan runs out of supplies

 

[Contrarian]

As I have said before as well, mig 29k can take off at mtow from Vikramaditya. I can prove it if you want.

USN and Indian carriers are not comparable because of size and roles. USN carriers carry 3-4 squadrons of fighters versus 1 for us. They use strike fighters against we using fighter bombers. So while US fighters do require heavy loadout fighters, we don't since a fleet defence role doesn't require us to be armed to the teeth.

With the difference in roles comes the difference in doctrine. If US were to attack Karachi, they would simply bomb it till they can find any part of it above water, and then they will move in. We, on the other hand, will attack and destroy their ships defending the harbour and pull anchor a safe distance from their airfields and establish a BARCAP, waiting for their fighters to come into the carrier's air defence zone, while we sit tight, patiently waiting as Pakistan runs out of supplies

Which is exactly my point. That brute force is enabled by the Carriers.

We have to move beyond providing fleet air defence with low offensive abilities using our carriers and turn them into offensive weapons able to stand against a sustained enemy AF.
We would start getting there slowly once we put cats on our Carrier.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Which is exactly my point. That brute force is enabled by the Carriers.

We have to move beyond providing fleet air defence with low offensive abilities using our carriers and turn them into offensive weapons able to stand against a sustained enemy AF.
We would start getting there slowly once we put cats on our Carrier.

I agree. We will get that capability with IAC-2. But I wanted to clarify it to everyone that even though Vikramaditya is smaller than USN carriers, it can perform Naval blockade of Pakistan as good as any other ship. The lesser capability can be compensated for by using a different tactic. So pakistanis who have been saying that Gorky is not a threat should wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Contrarian]

I agree. We will get that capability with IAC-2. But I wanted to clarify it to everyone that even though Vikramaditya is smaller than USN carriers, it can perform Naval blockade of Pakistan as good as any other ship. The lesser capability can be compensated for by using a different tactic. So pakistanis who have been saying that Gorky is not a threat should wake up and smell the coffee.

With all of that I agree.
Then again, a Carrier is not required either to blockade Pakistan. Thats an overkill.

 

[kaykay]

@Shadow_Hunter How much weight Mig-29K can carry from Ins Vikramaditya including full internal fuel?? I am asking because so far i thought that It can carry only 5500KG (including full internal fuel).

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

@Shadow_Hunter How much weight Mig-29K can carry from Ins Vikramaditya including full internal fuel?? I am asking because so far i thought that It can carry only 5500KG (including full internal fuel).

Actually the internal fuel capacity itself is 5500 kg. The external stores capacity is around 4000 kg, bringing total capacity to 9500 kg.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

would someone translate posts ~#104- 114 to English? no idea what you guys said. or was that the idea??

Please do just pass that by. Nothing much to think of.

 

[kaykay]

Actually the internal fuel capacity itself is 5500 kg. The external stores capacity is around 4000 kg, bringing total capacity to 9500 kg.

Just one correction: Internal fuel capacity is 4500 KG, with combat radius on 850 KM.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Just one correction: Internal fuel capacity is 4500 KG, with combat radius on 850 KM.

I picked my figure from here

MIG-29 TECHNICAL DETAILS

which mentions total internal fuel capacity of around 6900 ltrs. there are a lot of sources with different claims. Bharat Rakshak claims something else. Anyways, one thing they agree on it total capacity including internal fuel approaches 10000 kg. Combat radius again depends upon mission profile. It is not constant.

 

[Nexus]

are yaar ab suno dhyaan se....kya yaar kitne dino se ye sab latka k rakha haii

indian navy k pass sirf CBG nahi hai
mig 29 sirf CBG wale nai hai baki mig 29 bhi hai ar baki navy jhakk nai maregi
btw ppl are talking about using airforce against our navy...but sir fir indian airforce ko kaun counter karega ? ganja defence shield?
pakistani members ne apni poori navy show kr di k vo carrier uda denge...but baki indian navy k baare mein to soch lo

very true. i was reading this thread from starting and i saw same shit posted by other members.

 

[notorious_eagle]

This is not a paper claim. You are not well informed on mig 29k. It has substantially larger wing area than the normal mig 29. Hence it can generate higher lift even at low speeds.

TWR for a clean cut MIG29:

MIG29K: 0.97
MIG29: 1.09

Physics is a real bi** isn't it

I would need some concrete proof to believe that the MIG29K can generate a higher lift at lower speeds, considering the fact that it has a lower TWR than 1. Mind you that this TWR ratio is for a clean cut fighter, increase the weight on that plane and watch the TWR go even lower. It does appear that you are under the hallucination that Russians have created an airplane that defies the Laws of Physics.

Check and Mate Son

Chinese claim even their elephant J15 can take off at mtow from the Ukrainian AC. No one questions that story. But a small mig 29k should have problems.

The Chinese can claim whatever they want, how does that relate to the claims that you have made? Deflecting the attention, got ya.

I would think a think tank will research better before making claims.

I already have researched my claims and presented my argument in-front of you. I am yet to see you reciprocate.

I just wanted highlight that the combat radius is much higher than some people have been claiming here.

You haven't proven sh**, the only thing you have been feeding us is horse sh**. Making up lies just to make a point, you have been called out Son. Have some integrity and STOP LYING

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

TWR for a clean cut MIG29:

MIG29K: 0.97
MIG29: 1.09

Physics is a real bi** isn't it

I would need some concrete proof to believe that the MIG29K can generate a higher lift at lower speeds, considering the fact that it has a lower TWR than 1. Mind you that this TWR ratio is for a clean cut fighter, increase the weight on that plane and watch the TWR go even lower. It does appear that you are under the hallucination that Russians have created an airplane that defies the Laws of Physics.

Check and Mate Son

Here

Aviation EXplorer: Испытания АВ «Викрамадитья» идут хорошо

Translate this page to English from Russian. You will find a line like this:

Now we have to start to work with the MiG-29K full load to reiterate that the aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight is able to take off from the deck of an aircraft carrier

I was showing you little respect considering your rank. But as you have clearly shown, you certainly don't deserve it and should be treated like any other troll.

You haven't researched a single f*cking thing. You were making claims of combat radius of mig 29k being 200-300 miles purely out of thin air. When I proved them BS you went to mtow, even though a BARCAP mission doesn't require take off at mtow. Now since this proof has also been provided maybe you will choose to shut up and move on with your pathetic life. Or may you will again question the veracity of proof. whatever you want to tell yourself, tell it to yourself. I already had enough of your BS.