UAE, India and the Rafale issue

[Taygibay]

You keep jumping in and out of NATO so you have a more clearly defined military relationship. The only country in the world with whom we have ever had a mutual defence and support treaty has been Russia/USSR, that too in the 70s.

Military alliances are messed up. Too much complication.

Ah, you are pointing at something interesting there!
Yes, mil alliances are complex. Yes, we change foot
from time to time depending on how the "allies" be-
have and yet ...
France has self-defense accords set-up individually.
Our friendship with America would endure NATO dying
and our nuclear coverage of Germany isn't going anywhere.
And ask Mali if we respect our pact with past colonies.

I'd really like to chat that out with you at some point
on some thread but to be blunt to avoid an off-topic,
you can't make a couple friends and call yourself the
most popular kid on the block ( unless the block has 4 kids ).

You forge one on one pacts and build a network of allies
and then, you join one or more alliances on top of it.
It takes time.

Have a great day, Tay.

 

[Windjammer]

and world most intelligent,smart,clever awards goes Pakistan, world's only smart people

And that is the exact reason, illiterate sometimes with false flags descend on this forum to learn and get enlightened.

 

[randomradio]

Wrong. Check post-MMRCA negotiations and HAL's 2.7 hours per French hour.

Wrong. This time Dassault is directly involved in the production. Basically, it's Dassault's show. HAL isn't involved.

All manufacturers, and of course the govt, have figured out that if companies are able to leverage India's advantages on their own, then they will be able to make equipment much cheaper than in their own countries.

MMRCA went through a cumbersome bureaucratic process which made it more expensive and time consuming. Modi's made a lot of economic reforms since then. Not to mention, initiating a major overhaul of the supply chain.

And, considering that we will have 4 different fighter plane production lines, the economies of scale that applies here is huge. And the suppliers will more or less be the same for all 4 jets. Common sense says that with the IAF requirement for generating larger sortie rates compared to France, the spares consumption will be higher, so supplies of spares will be greater in India, hence suppliers in India will have more leverage over suppliers in France. This will benefit Dassault anyway. You see, Dassault only has a commitment to have French Rafales supplied and supported within France, apart from that they are a private company with their own agenda. If they find 'their' Indian line more lucrative, then more money will find its way there. After all, it is 'their' line.

For the last two years, ever since Mudi came here, you have been barking. Show me ONE contract, and then we will talk.

You have to get your house in order first. Why else do you think you have delayed the Rafale deal in the first place?

 

[Windjammer]

@Khafee , what's the latest on the Rafale deal, last i read was that UAE and France were still negotiating.

 

[Khafee]

Wrong. This time Dassault is directly involved in the production. Basically, it's Dassault's show. HAL isn't involved.

All manufacturers, and of course the govt, have figured out that if companies are able to leverage India's advantages on their own, then they will be able to make equipment much cheaper than in their own countries.

MMRCA went through a cumbersome bureaucratic process which made it more expensive and time consuming. Modi's made a lot of economic reforms since then. Not to mention, initiating a major overhaul of the supply chain.

And, considering that we will have 4 different fighter plane production lines, the economies of scale that applies here is huge. And the suppliers will more or less be the same for all 4 jets. Common sense says that with the IAF requirement for generating larger sortie rates compared to France, the spares consumption will be higher, so supplies of spares will be greater in India, hence suppliers in India will have more leverage over suppliers in France. This will benefit Dassault anyway. You see, Dassault only has a commitment to have French Rafales supplied and supported within France, apart from that they are a private company with their own agenda. If they find 'their' Indian line more lucrative, then more money will find its way there. After all, it is 'their' line.

Dear @Taygibay Those who wear tin foil hats will fry your brain with their stupidity, I have a spare EOD spare helmet, please email me your address, I will courier it to you.

 

[Louiq XIV]

You see, Dassault only has a commitment to have French Rafales supplied and supported within France, apart from that they are a private company with their own agenda. If they find 'their' Indian line more lucrative, then more money will find its way there. After all, it is 'their' line.

Well it may be 'their' line but the Rafale is not totally 'their' fighter considering the amount of money the GOF has spend on the project.

The specifications, a huge part of R&D and technologies/studies comes from French DGA/ONERA and others.

So I doubt very much that DA is as free to sell Rafale as you suggest.

I may be wrong though.

But with 'their' line they can produce and sell Falcons to whoever they want.

 

[Khafee]

You have to get your house in order first. Why else do you think you have delayed the Rafale deal in the first place?

You mean how MMRCA started out with 126 and ended up at 36? Yeah right!

Your M2K's are getting upgraded to what our M2K-9's were more than a decade ago. That is actually a slap on your face.

Our Rafay's will follow the same route as the M2K-9. So don't worry your pretty little head, we know fully well what to get, unlike you chest thumpers, All hot air and no substance, as usual.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Wrong. This time Dassault is directly involved in the production. Basically, it's Dassault's show. HAL isn't involved.

All manufacturers, and of course the govt, have figured out that if companies are able to leverage India's advantages on their own, then they will be able to make equipment much cheaper than in their own countries.

MMRCA went through a cumbersome bureaucratic process which made it more expensive and time consuming. Modi's made a lot of economic reforms since then. Not to mention, initiating a major overhaul of the supply chain.

And, considering that we will have 4 different fighter plane production lines, the economies of scale that applies here is huge. And the suppliers will more or less be the same for all 4 jets. Common sense says that with the IAF requirement for generating larger sortie rates compared to France, the spares consumption will be higher, so supplies of spares will be greater in India, hence suppliers in India will have more leverage over suppliers in France. This will benefit Dassault anyway. You see, Dassault only has a commitment to have French Rafales supplied and supported within France, apart from that they are a private company with their own agenda. If they find 'their' Indian line more lucrative, then more money will find its way there. After all, it is 'their' line.

Whao...

Maybe it's just me, but you make it sound like as if manufacturing an advanced 4++ gen jet would be like manufacturing a car. It's not that simple!

The deal comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies, big and small, will get businesses worth over €3 billion. People in the know of defence affairs said that one main point of the offset was that 74% of it has to be imported from India. This means a lot of business and job opportunities in India, people familiar with the matter said.

They added that the offset, spread over a period of seven years, will be finalised soon. “The offset clause of 50% in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort in developing world class technology within the country. “It further outlines the commitment made by the Indian government to promote the Indian manufacturing industry and support indigenisation of defence needs of the country,” Samtel Avionics managing director and chief executive officer Puneet Kaura said.

Under the offset agreement, French side has made a 30% offset commitment for military aerospace research and development programmes and the rest 20% for making components of Rafales here. The offsets will be carried out by French companies Safran, Thales, MBDA and Dassault, all part of the Rafale project.

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/gi...ter-jet-deal-comes-with-50-offset-clause.html

I think we can have a reasonable conclusion here so that there aren't any confusions.

 

[Dash]

Your M2K's are getting upgraded to what our M2K-9's were more than a decade ago. That is actually a slap on your face.

We fly Mirage 2kV when did you upgrade it to our version? And what did u upgrade it to?

 

[Taygibay]

Loki's post above is answer enough.
And, if Dassault is going to get more out of its line than HAL for sure,
it doesn't mean they'll get what they do in France.

For referral, France has the 6th GDP/man hour worldwide at 59.4 whilst
India is ranked below 60 with 3.4.
That means that if Dassault gets 5 times more out of its Indian employees
than the national average, it's still a fourth of what happens in Mérignac!

Sorry for brutally bursting your bubble but it's like that. Tying numbers
in pretty little knots to hold and garnish your assumptions bouquets is
very romantic, granted but industrial reality rarely is and war almost never.

Let's not get "too" mixed up between desires and factories, Tay.

 

[Dash]

Loki's post above is answer enough.
And, if Dassault is going to get more out of its line than HAL for sure,
it doesn't mean they'll get what they do in France.

For referral, France has the 6th GDP/man hour worldwide at 59.4 whilst
India is ranked below 60 with 3.4.
That means that if Dassault gets 5 times more out of its Indian employees
than the national average, it's still a fourth of what happens in Mérignac!

Sorry for brutally bursting your bubble but it's like that. Tying numbers
in pretty little knots to hold and garnish your assumptions bouquets is
very romantic, granted but industrial reality rarely is and war almost never.

Let's not get "too" mixed up between desires and factories, Tay.

Trappier just didnt bother bout the bove mathematics while he announced hat he intends to do in India at Aero 2017.

BENGALURU: After securing the Euro 8.78 billion deal for 36 Rafale fighters jets to strengthen the Indian Air Force fleet, French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation is now eying the naval contract of 57 aircraft that is up for grabs. The navy issued a 'Request for Information' last month seeking response from various manufacturers to equip its aircraft carriers with fighter jets, shelving the original plan to go in for the naval version of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, said the French aviation company will pitch for the naval contract. "We are the only company to have strictly the same aircraft for our air force and for our navy. Our Rafale for the navy and the air force are same," he told news agency PTI.

Early last version and the benefits it would offer with two arms of defence forces using Rafale fighter jets.

"In case year, a team from France had given a detailed presentation to senior navy officers on various aspects of the naval we have the new contract for the navy, we will benefit from the local implementation of the Rafale production (for the air force)," Mr Trappier said.

The Air Force is also looking to procure fighter jets to replenish its aging fleet. Dassault has already begun manufacturing the initial lot of 36 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

Like other defence companies vying for the multi-billion dollar contract, Dassault too has offered to set up a manufacturing line in India. "We started to think seriously about producing Rafale in India a long time ago. We will start production of parts of the Rafale jet, which is a part of the exisiting contract.

"It will not only be Rafale, but parts of Falcon (fighter jet) will be produced in India too. We want to have a serious footprint under the Make in India programme."

"If we get new contract for more Rafale jets, it will help us to develop more capabilities and we will have an assembly line in India," Mr Trappier said.

BTW long time since we spoke. Hope all is well with you.

 

[Taygibay]

Hey, Dash, all fine here and same wishes back!

You know why I gave those metrics, mate.
Of course there are good enough people to
staff a couple plants in the billion+ Indians.

We're just trying to hold back the delirious
magic wand plans of an over-enthusiastic &
over-symplifying of your countrymen that
make transplanting the production line of a
very high-tech complex product sound like
opening a burger line and getting a McDonald
franchise similar to buying the whole corp.

It will work, just not as routinely as some think.

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

 

[Dash]

Hey, Dash, all fine here and same wishes back!

You know why I gave those metrics, mate.
Of course there are good enough people to
staff a couple plants in the billion+ Indians.

We're just trying to hold back the delirious
magic wand plans of an over-enthusiastic &
over-symplifying of your countrymen that
make transplanting the production line of a
very high-tech complex product sound like
opening a burger line and getting a McDonald
franchise similar to buying the whole corp.

It will work, just not as routinely as some think.

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

ofcourse!!.. what you said is absolutely correct! it not the same as building a McD. And tbh I dont believe (kowing the French in how they deal) they will supply the core techs! Rest all you know.

And forgive my countrymen

 

[Khafee]

We fly Mirage 2kV when did you upgrade it to our version? And what did u upgrade it to?

Please look up Mirage 2000-9.

Thanks!

 

[Taygibay]

And forgive my countrymen

Oh, no need; we have the exact same!

Tay.