Turkey to modernize F-16 fighter jets of Pakistan Air Force

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

Thank you---with their salaries and perks---and residences and properties---this is absolutely not a poor man's military---.

With a fleet of bullet proof luxury vehicles for the rank and file---housing complexes---etc etc etc----the term lack of money is an excuse for bad bad planning.

this what happens when civil government is corrupt and military becomes powerful.

indeed billions can be saved if some simple reforms are made and man power is trimmed, this could be than spent on modernization of important branches

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

A quick look at Turkey's aero industry efforts !

-Turkey builds three fighter/trainer projects proceeding simultaneously.
*Hurkus turboprop trainer
*T-X jet trainer
*F-X fighter


T-X concept

-Industry develops/produces World class armed UAV's and own subsystems.
*Karayel Tactical class
*Bayraktar TB2 Tactical class
*Anka-B MALE
*Anka-S MALE
-Akinci HALE

Anka-S

-Turkey's avionic solutions find places on almost all type of crafts from helicopters to fighters. Aselsan introduced own IFF Mod-5/S, EW/ECM systems for fighters/helicopters.

-Turkey developed own mission computer called "Özgür" and integrated on F-16 successfully.

- Turkey produces almost all type lazer/GPS/INS guided smart munitions/miniature munitions.
*Teber family guided bombs
*HGK family guided bombs
*KGK family guided bombs
*NEB bunker buster core warhead
*LGK family laser guided bombs

- Turkey produces own air launched cruise missiles.
*SOM-A/B1/B2
*SOM-J
*SOM-ER

- Turkey develops own air to air missiles. The missiles will be ready in 2019.
*Goktuğ IIR VWR
*Goktuğ RF BVR

-Turkey produces own aircraft pod systems as well.
*E/O pod called "AselPod"
*EW pod called "MehPod"
*SAR pod

- Turkey develops two AESA radars for fighters.
*F-16 AESA radar (2019)
*TF-X AESA radar (2023)

-Turkey invests serious amount of money on material technologies. There are three aircraft engine manufacturing facilities called Alp Aviation, KaleAero and TEI working for big scale projects like F-35 and mastered on Titanyum handling technologies on critical components. In additions, A new R&D center opened under a partnership agreement with Rolls&Royce. Turkish institutes are selected as global maintenance center of F-35 costumers.

-At present, Turkey develops cruise missiles turbo-jet, 1000hp turbo-prop and 1400hp Turbo-shaft engines domestically.

I think Those are enough to commence own fighter project or upgrade ally countries fighter fleet based on own solutions.

F-X fighter project concept introduction

Reis Erdogan is so dead set on defense projects that he got his daughter being married to the CTO (a young guy off course) of UAV manufacturer Bayraktar..

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

So are you running for a seat somewhere?

Not right now. But if the future goes well, and as planned....I have plans to run. Probably starting from a Republican Congressman. How did you guess?

 

[Quwa]

HEWS in theory has Chaff, FLARE IR and Laser Jammers. IGLA has a nitrogen cooled seeker and is FM modulated.
The most experience has UK AIRWARFARE.

Pak F-16 upgrade with Turkish components ? What about IP of USA , integration and flight certs ?

Aren't chaffs meant for radars, and laser alert warning is similar to RWR, to alert the pilot of a laser lock. Flares are key against IR, but DIRCM is another measure which could help. HEWS doesn't include it, its primary focus is in spoofing radars.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Please help me understand how what I wrote was "Misleading". Turkey will do the upgrade, doesn't mean that Turkey, all of a sudden, has the ownership of the platform. In fact, if I am right in my understanding of the F-16 assembly line operating in Turkey, the Turks even have to run and get approval for their own F-16 upgrades. The overhaul and fixing is obviously all allowed. So when I write Turkey will do the upgrade, it is IMPLIED that the US administration has approved such upgrades and then LM has worked with Turkey on it and the defense contractors from LM are on the ground in Turkey as needed. This is a part of SOP's. So when I say Turkey is doing the upgrade, that automatically means the SOP's have been followed (which means all the above have taken place and completed).

But every-time there is a new project between two countries, symbolically, there is ALWAYS ribbon cutting. In this case, Pakistanis do save many millions by using Turkish facilities and their existing expertise in cases, so there is ALWAYS a ribbon cutting ceremony and a secondary contract beyond what's required for Turkey to start the work with LM.

Similarly, if I am running for some office and I am now say in a race for a Senator or Congressman or anything else, and I am throwing public speeches to get votes, it is implied that I've passed a serious background check as well as met the credentials and requirements for that seat I am seeking. I hope this helps.

Hence, Turkish folks are dead serious to have their own fighters. They are working in cooperation with Western companies and spending humongous amount of money for TOT and reference designs to start working upon them. This is the standard Turkish practices for almost all of the projects at the beginning. Once initial design and manufacturing are mastered then they start next level developments in a linear fashion since quantum leaps aren't suitable for reliable manufacturing. Universities are extensively involved. Many masters thesis and doctoral dissertations are parts of these defense projects. Better than "going home and die"...

 

[Signalian]

Do u know if Pak has protection in her helicopters against these surface-to-air missile, Usually there is no such protection shield do practically r working for helicopters or jet ...

Considering the shot down helicopter was an AH-1F of Turkish Armed Forces.

The AH-1F has an IR jammer mounted above the engine exhaust, and an IR suppressing engine exhaust system.

PAA has 36 AH-1F and 25 AH-1S. The S-version is a non-upgraded version.

 

[mustafa erkan]

Looks like it is 1-P.If it was cobra AH-1P then they dont have HEWS.
If it was cobra AH-1W it has HEWS.But we dont know how many of them got HEWS integration yet.I am not sure pilots have acsess to deactivate hews totaly and control it manually if it is It can also be a pilot failure .We cant say they are inexperianced because they are working with havelsan's simulators.
Another posibility is we have problems about hews but ı dont think it is possible. Army tested it and also exported to Chile and they also tested it.

 

[I S I]

Technically, if Paf can arrange funds for F16s. Why can't for Su 35. The person you mentioned is talking pure common sense. You got 20 billion dollars in reserves. Setting aside 3 billion $ over a period of 2 years can get you 36 Su35s or 75 J10s or 50 J16s. AND if you invest it in JF17, you can get a 4.5 generation fighter. Mind you some soft loan can also be arranged. You just see the availability of funds and aania jaania of PAF if somehow usa makes available F16.....

well State Bank got $16B in reserves. The rest (4B) are in private banks. Even that is not big enough reserve to waste on 2 dozen metal structures. We got priorities too & this ain't one.

 

[volatile]

well State Bank got $16B in reserves. The rest (4B) are in private banks. Even that is not big enough reserve to waste on 2 dozen metal structures. We got priorities too & this ain't one.

This is the 4-5 times i have seen some one posted regarding reserves for the love of Economics I am writing this 3rd time in last few weeks this money is for balance of payment not for shopping ,Balance of payment means IMports VS Exports we have currently around 36 Billion $ imports and Exports are around 22 Billion $ ,rest we have to pay each year around 10 Billion $ in debt servicing do your maths ,If you want to bankrupt pakistan on bunch of fighters please DONT

 

[I S I]

This is the 4-5 times i have seen some one posted regarding reserves for the love of Economics I am writing this 3rd time in last few weeks this money is for balance of payment not for shopping ,Balance of payment means IMports VS Exports we have currently around 36 Billion $ imports and Exports are around 22 Billion $ ,rest we have to pay each year around 10 Billion $ in debt servicing do your maths ,If you want to bankrupt pakistan on bunch of fighters please DONT

I know that.

 

[Dr Gupta]

Are these the Jordanian F-16's being upgraded? what will be their service life after the Turkish refit?

This is the 4-5 times i have seen some one posted regarding reserves for the love of Economics I am writing this 3rd time in last few weeks this money is for balance of payment not for shopping ,Balance of payment means IMports VS Exports we have currently around 36 Billion $ imports and Exports are around 22 Billion $ ,rest we have to pay each year around 10 Billion $ in debt servicing do your maths ,If you want to bankrupt pakistan on bunch of fighters please DONT

Yes I have noticed it too, how people think FR are like mum and dad's bank lol the mind boggles

 

[ghazi768]

The V upgrade is no joke. A lot of money and diplomacy is required. Unfortunately this country is unsecured on both fronts.



Totally correct. Turkey does not own the refurbishing facilities. But is it so hard to imagine that being in the country they would have a positive say and diplomatic push to upgrade and refurbish planes of a country that is not at war with the US where their congress or Senate has no say in business dealings?

This is not factually correct, LM and Raytheon (not sure if it was Raytheon or BAE) owned 49% shares in TAI. But from 2005 or 2007 TAI is now wholly owned by entities of Turkish state. Also TAI produces all 14,000 plus spare parts in F-16 and its engine. This does not mean that they can now start producing new jets for anyone, IP is still owned by US firms and TAI is also required to send each new aircraft to US soil before that jet departs to customer.

I am not entirely sure that these same procedures are required for upgrades as well. Also those upgrades such as non-US/trukish open mission computers and other gear is not under any such agreements.

 

[forcetrip]

This is not factually correct, LM and Raytheon (not sure if it was Raytheon or BAE) owned 49% shares in TAI. But from 2005 or 2007 TAI is now wholly owned by entities of Turkish state. Also TAI produces all 14,000 plus spare parts in F-16 and its engine. This does not mean that they can now start producing new jets for anyone, IP is still owned by US firms and TAI is also required to send each new aircraft to US soil before that jet departs to customer.

I am not entirely sure that these same procedures are required for upgrades as well. Also those upgrades such as non-US/trukish open mission computers and other gear is not under any such agreements.

You maybe right as I have very little information of the actual paperwork for the company that does deal with upgrading or maintaining aircraft. I hope it still does not make what i said incorrect as you suggested the same thing.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This is not factually correct, LM and Raytheon (not sure if it was Raytheon or BAE) owned 49% shares in TAI. But from 2005 or 2007 TAI is now wholly owned by entities of Turkish state. Also TAI produces all 14,000 plus spare parts in F-16 and its engine. This does not mean that they can now start producing new jets for anyone, IP is still owned by US firms and TAI is also required to send each new aircraft to US soil before that jet departs to customer.

I am not entirely sure that these same procedures are required for upgrades as well. Also those upgrades such as non-US/trukish open mission computers and other gear is not under any such agreements.

Muhterem Gazi Bey, for al these reasons Turkey so badly needs a fighter aircraft she can call her own. InshaAllah by her 100th birthday, a prototype will be flying...

30's were the last time they had their own aircraft manufacturing industry. Turkish folks have been showing their love for flying by donating animal hides from Kurban Bayram ( Eid-ul Azha) to Turk Hava Kurumu (Turkish Air Authority)...

 

[Sulman Badshah]

TAI in Talks to Upgrade Pakistani F-16s
Burak Ege Bekdil, Defense News1:50 p.m. EDT May 24, 2016
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ANKARA, Turkey — Tusas Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is negotiating with Pakistan to upgrade 74 Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighters, company officials said.

“The negotiations are being held through our Pakistani representative,” a TAI official said. “We are hopeful about an eventual deal in view of our excellent relations with PAF.”

If finalized the deal will involve upgrades on a batch of 74 PAF F-16 aircraft, including 14 fighters Pakistan will acquire from Jordan.

But for any Turkish-Pakistani deal a US go-ahead is required.

“We are in talks [with the Pakistani officials] but it is not certain that we shall win the contract,” the TAI official said. “These [Pakistani] aircraft will need a US permission for any upgrade program.”


DEFENSE NEWS

TAI Plans $212M Investment To Modernize Factory


In an earlier upgrade program for 41 F-16s, Pakistan wanted the job to be done locally but failed to win US permission. But the US agreed that TAI could carry out the upgrade work.

In September 2014, TAI delivered the last batch of four upgraded F-16s to PAF. That program involved avionics and structural modernization.

TAI, which assembled F-16 fighter jets in Turkey in the 1980s and 1990s, today manufactures parts for Boeing helicopter-maker Sikorsky. The company also is a participant in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program and the A400M, known in Turkey as the Future Large Aircraft.

TAI has upgraded scores of Turkish F-16s, too. But in a more ambitious program the company has been designing an indigenous Turkish fighter aircraft.

“Pakistan wants the new upgrade program to be done locally, like in the first program,” said a Turkish procurement official. “Local upgrade work is their first choice but if they fail to win the US permission for that they will probably go for the TAI option, like in the previous deal.”

A team of TAI and Turkish procurement officials will visit Pakistan in July for detailed talks on the F-16 upgrade program.

A Turkish official said that Ankara expects contract negotiations with Pakistan, including potential US approval for TAI’s upgrade deal, would take around two years.

“There is a lot to discuss, negotiate and discuss and negotiate again,” said one procurement official familiar with the contract.

He said that at this stage it is not clear what the Pakistani upgrade program will involve.

“The [Pakistani] requirement is not clear in terms of technological concept,” the official said. “It is not clear at this stage what upgrades would be involved and how much the work will cost.”

The previous TAI-PAF contract covering upgrades on 41 aircraft was worth $64.5 million. The 2008 deal saw TAI upgrade Pakistan’s older and then-newly acquired surplus F-16s to Block-52+ standard from 2010 onward.

Industry sources say if the Pakistani requirement is similar to that in the previous contract the new deal could be around $100 million.

Turkey and Pakistan traditionally have had good political relations. In recent years Pakistan has become an emerging market for Turkey’s defense companies, including a deal for the midlife upgrade of Pakistani F-16s, and Turkish engineering support for a logistical support ship for the Pakistani Navy.


DEFENSE NEWS

Pakistan F-16 Sale Survives US Senate Dogfight


A deal for a fleet tanker/replenishment ship was signed by Pakistan's Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works and Turkish technology and engineering firm STM in 2014. The vessel will be built in Karachi under STM supervision and delivered in 2017.

But Turkish officials usually view Pakistan as “not rich enough in cash” to buy the equipment or work Turkish companies wish to sell. A large Turkish-Pakistani deal to help Pakistan build Turkish designed corvettes fizzled out in 2009 when Pakistan's economy tanked, and matters have hardly improved since then.

Yet Turkey also is trying to sell two more of its indigenous systems to Pakistan: the Hurkus, a basic trainer aircraft and the T-129, a helicopter gunship TAI produces under license from the Italian-British AgustaWestlan. For any deal to sell the T-129, however, Turkey must obtain US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the attack helicopter.