The US military assesses it could cripple the Iranian Navy in minutes and destroy it in 2 days

[gambit]

You don't have a single general that comes anywhere near Soleimani in terms of his capabilities.

Guess who is dead?

You spend how much in Iraq? yet he took Iraq right under your nose

We have no problems calling Iraq a failure. In fact, Americans considered the entirety of the ME a failure, one of human proportion. If you take Iraq, it is because we gave up on the country and the people, not because you have any sort of geniuses in your ranks.

 

[Philosopher]

Guess who is dead?

Killing him did not remove his achievements.

We have no problems calling Iraq a failure. In fact, Americans considered the entirety of the ME a failure, one of human proportion. If you take Iraq, it is because we gave up on the country and the people, not because you have any sort of geniuses in your ranks.

So why did you give up on the country and people after you spent trillions there? I am trying to say it's because of Iran. You could not achieve what you wanted post-Saddam because of Iran. Similar situation when we look at middle east as a whole.

 

[gambit]

Killing him did not remove his achievements.

So what? We kill an enemy not because of his past achievements but to prevent new ones.

So why did you give up on the country and people after you spent trillions there?

Because the entire region is worthless.

I am trying to say it's because of Iran. You could not achieve what you wanted post-Saddam because of Iran. Similar situation when we look at middle east as a whole.

Of course you would say such a thing. What else can you say to make Iran more powerful than you really are? You had to interject yourself into Iraq because the idea of US being literally right next door is monumentally unpalatable. We transport ourselves from the other side of the world and defeated an enemy you could not. If you have Iraq, it is not because you took it but because we gave up on the region.

Then you shouldn’t have a problem if Iranians will blow up your embassies and assassinate your officials.

By all means, do so. For the record, I encourage you to do so and I say that, not in jest nor sarcasm, but in all seriousness.

Before I received orders to deploy to Desert Storm, we received briefings, official and unofficial, on the general culture of the region, particularly when it comes to the region's militaries. Essentially, we should give up on any ME army abiding by the rules of war, as much as rules can be applied. We should expect human shields, to be highest priority. In general, we should expect barbarity.

So when it comes to embassies, with other countries, I would remind them of diplomatic immunity, but for the ME, I encourage you to abandon all aspects of civilization. Do what make you feel good.

 

[Philosopher]

So what? We kill an enemy not because of his past achievements but to prevent new ones.

I have not said otherwise. I posted that comment for another reason.

Because the entire region is worthless.

7 trillion dollars worth of worthless?

Of course you would say such a thing. What else can you say to make Iran more powerful than you really are? You had to interject yourself into Iraq because the idea of US being literally right next door is monumentally unpalatable. We transport ourselves from the other side of the world and defeated an enemy you could not. If you have Iraq, it is not because you took it but because we gave up on the region.

Iran does not have to be stronger than the US conventionally to defeat it soundly time and again in a regional "game of chess". I am not trying to make Iran look stronger than it is, just observations of events in that region in the past decade and more.

 

[LeGenD]

Nobody's efforts but your own, in the two posts you made on Page 15.

Who started this?

This guy: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...tes-and-destroy-it-in-2-days.651899/page-14#p

No issue with remarks about another member but why target me in the process? I do not even recall having an exchange with this member in a while.

Iranian members are rather adept in the art of irritating, insulting and provoking other members. How about being humble and paying heed to what others have to say about Iran and why Iran does not have a good reputation?

 

[AmirPatriot]

Who started this?

This guy: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...tes-and-destroy-it-in-2-days.651899/page-14#p

No issue with remarks about another member but why target me in the process? I do not even recall having an exchange with this member in a while.

Iranian members are rather adept in the art of irritating, insulting and provoking other members. How about being humble and paying heed to what others have to say about Iran and why Iran does not have a good reputation?

Much like a teacher would say on a school playground: "I don't care who started it".

I can't recall ever using xenophobic retorts on this forum, even though I've seen and received the standard amount of abuse that Shia Iranians get on here. You exploded into a tirade of racist abuse against both Persians and Afghans because of a one line jab? I refuse to believe you are so clinically thin-skinned.

Even Afghans

Persian morons

What exactly you morons are proud of?

Persians are the most deluded

and paranoid bunch

And God knows where this will end:

I will create a thread here on PDF to show how many times Persians

It is inexcusable.

 

[Blue In Green]

Nobody's efforts but your own, in the two posts you made on Page 15.

I'll admit one thing and one thing only, I've been too hard on LeGend. For some reason I've latched onto him since I view him to be the ultimate personification of American arrogance (excluding Gambit and others). Iranians and those of us who sympathize with Iran have definite attitude issues that is to be sure. We can be overly rude and bombastic, we can also be rabble-rousers although I would argue that this behavior has been learned due to the environment of PDF being generally hostile against Iranians but that's a topic for another day, in short we act defensive as a knee-jerk reaction to the hostile forum we've settled in after the other forums closure.

Anyways moving on, Iran has come such a long way since 10, hell even 5 years ago yet it seems the majority of the members here will just caste away that progress to parrot some Pentagon PR line of 'full spectrum dominance' bullshit and just leave it there expecting us to just accept it. I sincerely know that many Iranians have either tacitly or inadvertently accepted that any sort of conflict with Israel or the U.S. armed forces will lead to huge losses for Iran as a nation in some form or fashion. But that reality doesn't mean much since, well, what else are we gonna do? I'm American, born in the states to two Iranians immigrant yet I still have this weird attachment to Iran (that doesn't trump my own loyalty to America per-say but its complicated). The Iranians here born in Iran or moved from Iran also have a strong attachment to Iran so when we see forum users putting America on a pedestal whilst dragging Iran's name through the mud obviously our first reaction is to become hostile. It's just a natural response.

Idk, I genuinely don't think LeGend is a 'bad' person ( although his latest racist/bigoted tirade against Persians/Iranians and Afghans is very telling) but him giving America EVERY benefit of the doubt on-top of being super biased in favor of the U.S. war machine is just mind numbing (America can be defeated, we've seen in play out multiple times, they're not invincible for the love of ****). If I didn't know better, and I took the words of LeGenD and Gambit as gospel. Then Iran should just give up right here, right now. Iran stands ZERO chance according to those two. Which is just stupid a year and a half ago-ish when I last had discourse with LeGenD and it still is now. Sincerely don't know where this idea that America will just steam-roll through Iran is coming from... I just can't grasp it. Iran isn't Iraq for the one-hundreth million time. There isn't any viable correlation, the militaries are different, the weapons are not the same, the IADS are not the same, the tactics are not the same, the people and ideologies are sure as **** not the same, the RESOLVE is not the same yet those two bring up Desert storm (30 years ago now) as if it will be a play-play re-play of what will happen to Iran in a war time scenario against U.S. forces. Forget the 21st century ADS, forgot the cyber-warfare, forget the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of missiles in bases well fortified against most of what America can throw, forget the 100,000s of non-Iranian troops ready to go to war against U.S. across the levant, forget how Iran has surgical level missiles that can hinder American operations the region over, forget the oil fields going up in flames, forget Hezbollah bringing the entirety of Israel to a standstill, forget the ever advancing Iranian missile program that is showing just how effective a viable missile force can be; JUST FORGET ALL OF IT SINCE AMERICA WILL JUST WIN, BECAUSE AMERICA IS WINNING.

It's tiring, it's childish, it's disingenuous and loathsome to say the least.

LeGeD, say what you want but I really don't care anymore, at this stage we are clearly in the part of the movie where both belligerents will have to get into a true conflagration to see who was bullshitting and who was being honest.

 

[dani92]

So what? We kill an enemy not because of his past achievements but to prevent new ones.


Because the entire region is worthless.


Of course you would say such a thing. What else can you say to make Iran more powerful than you really are? You had to interject yourself into Iraq because the idea of US being literally right next door is monumentally unpalatable. We transport ourselves from the other side of the world and defeated an enemy you could not. If you have Iraq, it is not because you took it but because we gave up on the region.


By all means, do so. For the record, I encourage you to do so and I say that, not in jest nor sarcasm, but in all seriousness.

Before I received orders to deploy to Desert Storm, we received briefings, official and unofficial, on the general culture of the region, particularly when it comes to the region's militaries. Essentially, we should give up on any ME army abiding by the rules of war, as much as rules can be applied. We should expect human shields, to be highest priority. In general, we should expect barbarity.

So when it comes to embassies, with other countries, I would remind them of diplomatic immunity, but for the ME, I encourage you to abandon all aspects of civilization. Do what make you feel good.

No offense but the hypocrite westerners are the last to speak about civilization in the land of civilizations specially if you know you were just barbarians few centuries ago and now you hide your barbarism behind the democracy and human rights and yes we saw your democracy and humanity in China,loas,vietnam,Japan, Africa and Latin America specially when I see Americans talking about turning Middle East to a glass. Also where is the diplomatic immunity and international law when assassinating foreign officials, overthrow governments, invade countries based on lies and using forbidden weapons???!!

 

[gambit]

No offense...

None taken.

...but the hypocrite westerners are the last to speak about civilization in the land of civilizations specially if you know you were just barbarians few centuries ago...

That is not hypocrisy. That is growth and maturity.

...and now you hide your barbarism behind the democracy and human rights...

Yup...And that is what people want, China, Laos, Viet Nam, Japan, Africa, and the Americas. No one wants the ME.

7 trillion dollars worth of worthless?

Yes. Seven trils are the best measure we have to date that the ME is not worth our efforts. Lessons learned.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Then why do you have a problem with US taking out Suleimani, an Iranian general in Iraq which is currently under US management? You talked as if what we did was extraordinary when it is not compared to what Iran does.

As far as im since 2006 Iraq was not under USA management.

Guess who is dead?

Ayat-Allah Mike ?

 

[Mithridates]

None taken.


That is not hypocrisy. That is growth and maturity.


Yup...And that is what people want, China, Laos, Viet Nam, Japan, Africa, and the Americas. No one wants the ME.


Yes. Seven trils are the best measure we have to date that the ME is not worth our efforts. Lessons learned.

yeah you are mature and civilized lol. you are right now killing each other in streets. you are mature nation allows a person to have a semi automatic .50 cal sniper as self defense weapon. your kids are killing each other in schools.
your police forces are the most coward and racist force in the world compare it with any police forces in the world.
if you were under sanctions like Iran or endured 5 devastating wars in 40 years in your homeland like Iraq you would probably eating each other.

 

[Philosopher]

Yes. Seven trils are the best measure we have to date that the ME is not worth our efforts. Lessons learned.

Well then, lets hope your commander in chief follows up on his promises of reducing your presence in that region . Not seeing much of that so far.

 

[gambit]

yeah you are mature and civilized lol. you are right now killing each other in streets. you are mature nation allows a person to have a semi automatic .50 cal sniper as self defense weapon. your kids are killing each other in schools.
your police forces are the most coward and racist force in the world compare it with any police forces in the world.
if you were under sanctions like Iran or endured 5 devastating wars in 40 years in your homeland like Iraq you would probably eating each other.

Been to the ME before Desert Storm, and even then, other than the food, there was nothing about the ME that I want to import back into my life. After DS, it convinced me even more that the West should have, if not absolutely nothing, then minimal involvement in the ME. We are not perfect, but as far from perfection, we equally further ahead than the entirety of the ME. Racism? I received more racism from the ME than from my life so far in the West. In real estate, there are 'comparables' or 'comps' when assessing properties. Your part of the world ain't comparable to ours in all aspects of modern life.

If I didn't know better, and I took the words of LeGenD and Gambit as gospel. Then Iran should just give up right here, right now. Iran stands ZERO chance according to those two. Which is just stupid a year and a half ago-ish when I last had discourse with LeGenD and it still is now. Sincerely don't know where this idea that America will just steam-roll through Iran is coming from... I just can't grasp it. Iran isn't Iraq for the one-hundreth million time.

This is a MILITARY oriented forum, is it not?

Sure, when I received orders to deploy for Desert Storm, the alliance DID NOT believe that we would 'steam-roll' the Iraqi military. Many, if not most, of our combat tactics developed post Viet Nam were largely untested, especially those tailored for the environment of Europe. The uncertainty was so strong that the Soviets and Chinese military leadership predicted that while the allies would ultimately prevail, there would not be any steamrolling of any Iraqi force and that alliance casualties would be Vietnam-like.

But steamrolled the Iraqi army, we did. How old were you when DS came? For me, I changed from a European oriented mentality to a ME one. Telling someone like me that 'Iran is not Iraq' misses the point of progress, and no one is more self critical than the US military establishment. The US military of today is not the US military of Desert Storm. Who in the Chinese PLA and (now) Russian military establishments are willing to predict a US-Iran conflict outcome that is the same as the prediction of Desert Storm? That reticent should put a pause on that stale 'Iran is not Iraq' argument. You are not debating this with any typical keyboard warrior here but someone who was there when the Berlin Wall collapsed and when the Iraqi army failed.

 

[Blue In Green]

Been to the ME before Desert Storm, and even then, other than the food, there was nothing about the ME that I want to import back into my life. After DS, it convinced me even more that the West should have, if not absolutely nothing, then minimal involvement in the ME. We are not perfect, but as far from perfection, we equally further ahead than the entirety of the ME. Racism? I received more racism from the ME than from my life so far in the West. In real estate, there are 'comparables' or 'comps' when assessing properties. Your part of the world ain't comparable to ours in all aspects of modern life.


This is a MILITARY oriented forum, is it not?

Sure, when I received orders to deploy for Desert Storm, the alliance DID NOT believe that we would 'steam-roll' the Iraqi military. Many, if not most, of our combat tactics developed post Viet Nam were largely untested, especially those tailored for the environment of Europe. The uncertainty was so strong that the Soviets and Chinese military leadership predicted that while the allies would ultimately prevail, there would not be any steamrolling of any Iraqi force and that alliance casualties would be Vietnam-like.

But steamrolled the Iraqi army, we did. How old were you when DS came? For me, I changed from a European oriented mentality to a ME one. Telling someone like me that 'Iran is not Iraq' misses the point of progress, and no one is more self critical than the US military establishment. The US military of today is not the US military of Desert Storm. Who in the Chinese PLA and (now) Russian military establishments are willing to predict a US-Iran conflict outcome that is the same as the prediction of Desert Storm? That reticent should put a pause on that stale 'Iran is not Iraq' argument. You are not debating this with any typical keyboard warrior here but someone who was there when the Berlin Wall collapsed and when the Iraqi army failed.

More unsubstantiated erroneous connections made from someone so deluded in thinking Iran and Iraq are interchangeable entities, your arrogance and profound ignorance precedes you Gambit. It's 2020 Gambit, 2020.... I wonder what you'll say in 2030 or 2040 or 2050 or 2060 or 2070 or 2080 or 2090 or 2100 etc. Nah, really doesn't matter does it? Iran and Iraq will just be the same to you.

"Iran and Iraq are the same" Sod off already with that shit, you aren't convincing anyone with that crap, not even for a second.

• Where was Saddam's massive stockpile of precision guided heavy ordinances ready to go at a moments notice?
• Where was Saddam's ability to fire off missiles from 500km-700km-1,000km and more with great precision and accuracy in massive numbers with more missiles ready to go safe in underground facilities, that range will soon be 1,300km btw (I'm referring to JUST the Fateh line in case you gave two shits)?
• Where was Saddam's 21st century ADS systems?
• Where was Saddam's ability to produce and field indigenous SAM systems in mass?
• Where was Saddam's ability to produce missiles in mass and field them in mass?
• Where was Saddam's ability to produce cruise missile in mass and field them?
• Where was Saddam's ability to produce Anti-ship Quasi-ballistic missiles and field them in mass?
• Where was Saddam's ability to produce advanced long-range Radars, an OTH radars?
• Where was Saddam's Mosaic defense doctrine?
• Where was Saddam's IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN ARMY WILLING TO DIE NO MATTER THE COSTS, IN THE MILLIONS MIND YOU?
• Where was Saddam's 100,000s of militia men from all over the Levant well equipped and ready to die hitting and destroying American assets wherever they can find them?
• Where was Saddam's expansive underground missile base network housing bombs 1,000lb in weight and more warheads capable of destroying airbases, bunkers, ships (any static object) with high precision and more than great reliability?
• Where was Saddam's cyber-warfare regiment able to conduct crippling cyber-attacks against critical U.S. economic interests as well as infrastructure at home?
• Where was Saddam's ability to literally destroy oil/gas production in the Middle East causing world-wide economic turmoil?
• Where was Saddam's massive drone fleet that can cover the middle east giving one eye's in the sky, in real time?
• Where was Saddam's ability to produce advanced drones in mass and use them successfully against enemy targets (Aramco)?
• Where was Saddam's electronic warfare unit able to jam American aircraft and hack into advanced American drones bringing them down?
• Where was Saddam's willing populace that would put their lives on the line to fight off an invader even if it meant millions would be dead?
• WHERE WAS SADDAM'S NATIONAL DEFENSE INDUSTRY CAPABLE OF PROVIDING HIS ARMY WITH ALL THE NECESSARY ARMS AND PROVISIONS NEEDED TO FIGHT A WAR INCLUDING BM'S AND QUASI BMS WITH GREAT DESTRUCTIVE POWER AND PRECISION, BOATS, SHIPS, SUBMARINES, MINES, AIRCRAFT, DRONES, SAMS, RADARS, TANKS, ATGMS, ROCKETS, SATELLITES AND SO MUCH MORE? WAY TOO MANY TO LIST OFF!

AND YET YOU ACTUALLY THINK IRAN AND IRAQ ARE THE SAME AND THE WAR WILL PLAY OUT THE SAME!?!?!??! MAD, YOU'RE MAD. Not to mention the massive insult to everyone's intelligence here. Jesus H. Christ, you make me sick...

You are essentially telling all of the Iranian members ( and non-Iranian) here that Iran still stands ZERO chance MILITARILY because you saw Desert Storm first hand and that U.S. has 'progressed' from that point. That's a fair statement but why can't that same 'progress' be applied to Iran? Did the Iranians just sit around fiddling with their thumbs for the past 30 FUCKING YEARS?!?! Are you that ridiculously deluded to the extreme to actually think a conflict with Iran will play out the same way it did against Saddam's forces back in 91? Words cannot even begin to adequately describe the level of arrogance driven delusion you have put on display for 3-4 years now that I've been on this god-forsaken forum. I understand your dogmatic nature on the matter but you've given the Iranian military/nation little to no fair assessment since any and all of your arguments end in this weird conclusion that Iran's potential damage to the U.S. is meaningless. HOW IN THE HOLY HELL IS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS DEAD AND MANY MULTIPLE BILLIONS IF NOT TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DAMAGE DONE TO AMERICAN ASSETS/ALLIES MEANINGLESS?!?!

I respect your background, but you are making a ONE-TO-ONE comparisons here and expecting everyone to just accept it, well we won't, we can't and we will oppose you whilst debunking your BS claims, that goes double for you LeGenD. Guys like you get millions of people killed because you think your shit doesn't stink and convince others that attacking nation A or B is worth it since our military and nation can deal with the possible fallout.

Screw it, I hope Iran and the U.S. get into a conflict. There really isn't any other way of knowing other than to see it go full-tilt.

 

[Philosopher]

This is what America's airforce looked like during desert storm:

Saddam had no access denial capability. He could do nothing about these vast, many months long buildup of USA and her allies right on his door step. In a potential conflict with Iran, every single one of these airbases will look like this x100

The above attack on US airbase in Iraq was a pre-warned deliberately limited attack as a warning to the US. And this is a capability that Saddam could only dream about. @BlueInGreen2 Gave many other good examples of other vast differences between Iran and Iraq.

When it comes to Iran and Iraq, the only similarity is the first 3 letters of their name. After that, everything changes, greatly. Anyone that actually believes a war with Iran will be qualitatively and quantitatively similar to Iraq, either:

1) Generally knows little about warfare
2) Specifically Knows very little about Iran's capability and its war waging methodology.

Point 2) is very common and should not surprise people that many fall in that category. If I had not been following Iran's military development/doctrine for the past decade, I would have also fallen into it. Why? because it's easy to see conflicts only in terms of conventional might. I.e Nations A and B are fighting in a vacuum, if nation B has less advanced fighter jets than A, then it will be lose. In the real world however, conflicts are not dictated by such factors alone. They're not some conventional battle in a vacuum. A country like Iran will not fight the US in the same way Iran fought Iraq, or how Iraq fought the US, only fools would fight the enemy in a domain they're strongest if they can avoid it.

I advise people to look into Iran's Mosaic defence doctrine to get a general idea of what I and others here are talking about.