TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Tsenal]

Again, as I said before, I politely ask forum members to provide references of GM supplying GE F110 for TF-X and the US congress approving such sales. I could not find anything on GM Aviation website even though the company mentioned of supplying F414 for both Gripen E/F and KFX.

I thank forum members of engaging in the talk in civily manners and I appreciate how moderators are trying to be fair to all participants.

President of SSB and CEO of TAI both said that they have secured procurement for F110 engines to be used on MMU prototypes.

 

[SgtGungHo]

President of SSB and CEO of TAI both said that they have secured procurement for F110 engines to be used on MMU prototypes.

Thank you for your information. However, as I said, this claim has not been verified by other involved parties such as GE or the US government. I have to note it again that GE Aviation made it clear that they were supplying engines for other projects such as Gripen E/F and KF-X (prototype), but not for TF-X.

 

[Tsenal]

Thank you for your information. However, as I said, this claim has not been verified by other involved parties such as GE or the US government. I have to note it again that GE Aviation made it clear that they were supplying engines for other projects such as Gripen E/F and KF-X (prototype), but not for TF-X.

F110 is only going to be used on prototypes so why would GE advertise it? Also, if SSB and TAI is not trustworthy enough of a source for you, I have nothing else to say.

 

[Indos]

F110 is only going to be used on prototypes so why would GE advertise it? Also, if SSB and TAI is not trustworthy enough of a source for you, I have nothing else to say.

I think the problem @SgtGungHo is raised is good for the program future. Turkey should not make the same mistake it make in Altay program. Engine is very crucial. Just think if you have made successful prototype and then GE or US government refuse to supply other TFX planes with F 110 engines after the program reach mass production phase.

There should be a commitment in the form of contract from GE to supply TFX program in mass production phase and this should have USA government approval as well.

The preliminary design and detail design is based on specific engine, you cannot change the engine what ever you like. Not only the dimension but also the weight of engine is critical on the design phase.

Some of you must raise this question to SSB and TAI official to clear this issue. There may be some Turkish journalist in here or some of your friends maybe senior journalists in Turkey respected news outlet. Or at least ask the issue on TAI twitter account.

 

[blackeyes90]

I think the problem @SgtGungHo is raised is good for the program future. Turkey should not make the same mistake it make in Altay program. Engine is very crucial. Just think if you have made successful prototype and then GE or US government refuse to supply other TFX planes with F 110 engines after the program reach mass production phase.

There should be a commitment in the form of contract from GE to supply TFX program in mass production phase and this should have USA government approval as well.

The preliminary design and detail design is based on specific engine, you cannot change the engine what ever you like. Not only the dimension but also the weight of engine is critical on the design phase.

Some of you must raise this question to SSB and TAI official to clear this issue. There may be some Turkish journalist in here or some of your friends maybe senior journalists in Turkey respected news outlet. Or at least ask the issue on TAI twitter account.

Well thats a very good point actually.

 

[eagleeye]

there is no restrictions for own demands only for export. tr motor has began with tfx engine development one or two years ago. we have still 10 year for the serial production of tfx. i am optimistic that we have a engine by this time.

 

[Rogue1]

Perhaps an engine will be produced with lower thrust and/or short lifespan. Would that really be a problem? This is only a problem when you are competing with another engine such as JF17 case with Russian or Chinese engine.
But if it is your own engine then the cost and life cycle of the engine is not a problem. And low thrust will not make much difference in a BVR engagement unless you are trying to evade an oncoming missile. And in that case other measures can be relied on.

 

[Saithan]

I think the problem @SgtGungHo is raised is good for the program future. Turkey should not make the same mistake it make in Altay program. Engine is very crucial. Just think if you have made successful prototype and then GE or US government refuse to supply other TFX planes with F 110 engines after the program reach mass production phase.

There should be a commitment in the form of contract from GE to supply TFX program in mass production phase and this should have USA government approval as well.

The preliminary design and detail design is based on specific engine, you cannot change the engine what ever you like. Not only the dimension but also the weight of engine is critical on the design phase.

Some of you must raise this question to SSB and TAI official to clear this issue. There may be some Turkish journalist in here or some of your friends maybe senior journalists in Turkey respected news outlet. Or at least ask the issue on TAI twitter account.

You have to understand that the current government is trying to push for national flight for pr stunt. We have secured 6 engines for this purpose. So in a way they are going to repeat the same mistake as altay.

But we do have experience with the engine so our own engine might resemble f110 a lot.

If our mmu can be a 4th gen then that’s a good starting point

 

[Kamil_baku]

2023.
just impossible with the lack of experience of Turkey, and the financial restrictions.

how about your 5th generation fighter? i smell jealousness here, Eu jet will not get prototype in 2030, when Turkey will own the jet with its own engine...

 

[Kamil_baku]

Turkey has 30 years of knowledge with f110 engine. Their new engine will look like it but probably get little different design, so Turkey able to sell it. also no way to rush for it, Turkey has time until 2029 to make it ready as Turkey sekured f110 engines for prototypes.

 

[neosinan]

You have to understand that the current government is trying to push for national flight for pr stunt. We have secured 6 engines for this purpose. So in a way they are going to repeat the same mistake as altay.

But we do have experience with the engine so our own engine might resemble f110 a lot.

If our mmu can be a 4th gen then that’s a good starting point

I am pretty sure reading 5 engine was delivered for 2 prototype. Can you share your source?

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

I think the problem @SgtGungHo is raised is good for the program future. Turkey should not make the same mistake it make in Altay program. Engine is very crucial. Just think if you have made successful prototype and then GE or US government refuse to supply other TFX planes with F 110 engines after the program reach mass production phase.

There should be a commitment in the form of contract from GE to supply TFX program in mass production phase and this should have USA government approval as well.

The preliminary design and detail design is based on specific engine, you cannot change the engine what ever you like. Not only the dimension but also the weight of engine is critical on the design phase.

Some of you must raise this question to SSB and TAI official to clear this issue. There may be some Turkish journalist in here or some of your friends maybe senior journalists in Turkey respected news outlet. Or at least ask the issue on TAI twitter account.

But waiting for a suitable engine will cause massive delays for the project. Which Turkey is not willing to do or able to afford. The current roadmap for the TFX project is good in my opinion, they first want to make TFX a 4+ gen fighter jet and improve it in phases to 5'th gen. The engine's selected for the prototypes are allready being used in our F-16's and these engines are being manufactered in Turkey by TEI. This means that the risk of TFX facing the same problems with Altay is lower. Turkey is allready using these engine's and manufactures these engine's in Turkey, so I don't know if another approval is needed by the US senate etc. According to SSB president Ismail Demir there are currently no procurement problems for F110 engine's.
https://www.savunmasanayist.com/mmu-prototiplerinde-kullanilacak-motorlar-tedarik-edildi/

In the meantime SSB is looking for a technological partner regarding the engine. According to Ismail Demir (president of SSB) talks with RR is still ongoing (as of december 2019). Sources are in Turkish so you might wanna use Google translate on it: https://www.savunmasanayi.org/tfx-5-ulke-talip/

Edit: In a more recent interview (May of this year) Ismail Demir said he did not want to disclose a country name but regarding technical support for indiginous engine talks were going in a positive direction but this takes time, so in the meantime they acquired 6 F110's for the first few prototypes.
Source is in Turkish: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/mmu-prototiplerinde-kullanilacak-motorlar-tedarik-edildi/

The point of contention in these talks is the exporting rights of the engine and whether it needs approval of England or not. Turkey looks to avoid the problems faced with T-129 using US engine's to exports. So the problem is not necessarily whether Turkey is allowed to use the engine (which is the problem with Altay), but rather whether Turkey is allowed to export the engine.

Altay's powerpack was going to be imported from Germany until the indigenous engine was ready (this was the original roadmap laid out when Altay project first started in 2007 or something). But Germany refused to sell to Turkey which caused the delay for serial production. However on the bright side, the Altay project is done, tested and approved. The delays it is facing is external and once this problem is solved it is ready to move on.

You have to understand that the current government is trying to push for national flight for pr stunt. We have secured 6 engines for this purpose. So in a way they are going to repeat the same mistake as altay.

But we do have experience with the engine so our own engine might resemble f110 a lot.

If our mmu can be a 4th gen then that’s a good starting point

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

"Turkey's indigenous fither jet TFX is set to fly at twice the speed of sound in 2023, daily Haberturk reported on Dec. 15"

It would be miracle if Turkey could fly a fully indigenous fighter jet by 2023. I am more than happy to applaud their effort if they actually could finish the final design of TFX and a TF-X prototype enters production by 2023, but this claim that Turkey can fly the jet in 2023 is just absurd as they don't even have any working turbofan engine (Please correct me with sources if I am wrong), which means the engineers cannot even work on the design at the moment. Engineers need months, if not years to go through many stages of designing a jet including preliminary designs, critical designs, modeling, design reviews, analysis & evaluation of designs and so on. After that, they should go through the joy of building a prototype and testing the aircraft on the ground. It won't fly in 2023. They simply don't have enough time.

TAI is looking to roll out TFX in 2023 (with engines on) and first flight is scheduled for 2025. Currently the roadmap is to make it 4'th gen, or 4+ gen, and improve in later stages to 5'th gen. Turkey is still looking for technical support for engine and talks with RR is ongoing as of december 2019. The main contention point for these talks is the exporting rights of the engine. The source is an interview with Ismail Demir (president of SSB). SSB is the organisation that oversee's and initiates military projects and procurements.

Edit: In a more recent interview (May of this year) Ismail Demir said he did not want to disclose a country name but regarding technical support for indiginous engine talks were going in a positive direction but this takes time, so in the meantime they acquired 6 F110's for the first few prototypes.
Source is in Turkish: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/mmu-prototiplerinde-kullanilacak-motorlar-tedarik-edildi/

In december 2019 he said talks with RR was still ongoing, but we can't be sure if it actually is RR still that he is referring to in the May 2020 interview. I think it is more probable that it is RR but I am speculating at this point.

, it was reported in the last year that preliminary design review of Hurjet was completed, which is a good news, but that also means the design is still probably in Engineering & Manufacturing development phase in 2020 which includes critical design review and a prototype of Hurjet won't be ready for a maiden flight for another several months, if not years. Again, it would be some achievement if Turkish engineers manage to build a trainer jet, not a prototype, that is fully operational by the year of 2022 or even 2023.

Maiden flight for Hurjet is scheduled for 2023. Groundtest will start in august 2021.
https://www.savunmasanayist.com/hurjet-projesinde-son-durum-ne/
Source is in Turkish though.

 

[Test7]

BAE System is hiring Engineers for the detail engineering phase of the TF-X program.

https://baesystems.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobsearch.ftl?f=null&LOCATION=254205020436

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/bae-system-is-hiring-engineers-for-the-tf-x-program.679997/

 

[Oguzbalasi]

not much big news. Most of these BAE system engineers worked in Saudi Arabia before they work for TF-X.