Turkiye's Minister of National Defense Guler: Agreement with Pakistan for KAAN is about to be signed

[JX-1]

Hastily done deals often end up in pain. The Pakistanis are trying to copy India in 5th generation development in which France will help build the engine and India will build its own frame. India has more money than bankrupt Pakistan. Indian economy is $3.75 trillion and rising. Pakistani economy is under $400 billion and is not progressing, hence why compete.

Pakistan is restoring the balance of power in a cost efficient manner as it always has.

Indian economy may be larger than Pakistan but that's just because its population is also larger - and notably more hungry than Sudan, let alone Pakistan.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Do you have any date prediction for Block-4? In recent days, high-level delegations from the TAF have been briefed on Block-3, as you know, or some possibilities(may be about Pakistan aircraft, Turkish avionics) are being evaluated regarding a third-party country that we do not know yet.

There's no Block-4 on the official record, not yet anyways. However, as @arslank03 found, there are some reasons to believe that one could be in the pipeline -- e.g., Pakistan's in-house AESA radar, EW/ECM and AAM programs.

Personally, I think the PAF will continue ordering JF-17s through the long-term -- even in incremental batches -- to gradually phase out the F-7PGs and Mirage III/5s (including ROSE variants). I can also see the PAF look at replacing the older JF-17s (Block-1s and Block-2s) with newer JF-17s, especially as there are some clear 'breaks' between the 1/2 and B/3 (e.g., hybrid FBW vs. 3-axis FBW; AESA radar compatibility; etc).

The PAF has also invested in configuring the JF-17 for the strike role via IREK, AZB, Taimoor ALCM, etc. It's clear that the Thunder's poised to assume a much bigger responsibility in air-to-ground/surface missions. You'd want to carry forward that work into newer airframes with even better radars and electronics.

Finally, even if the KAAN hits a snag (e.g., delays in the TR Motor engine development), we'll still see lots of other subsystems materialize and mature in the meantime, like the Aselsan TULGAR HMD/S, new-gen EW/ECM, the IRST and EOTS, manned-unmanned teaming etc. The PAF might be interested in applying these to its fleet sooner than later, so they could look at applying them to the JF-17.

So, there are clear reasons for a Block-4 and even Block-5 to exist. I think we could see a Block-4 in 2027-2029.

 

[hari sud]

Pakistan is restoring the balance of power in a cost efficient manner as it always has.

Indian economy may be larger than Pakistan but that's just because its population is also larger - and notably more hungry than Sudan, let alone Pakistan.

Restoring balance of power with ten times larger neighbour is fool hardy. The neighbour is on its way up and Pakistan is moving in the opposite direction. It has lead to almost bankruptcy this year for Pakistan which the IMF saved. It will go further into bankruptcy again in a year or two and that is all because of its effort to restore the balance of power. It suits India fine.

 

[TheSolution]

Pakistan is restoring the balance of power in a cost efficient manner as it always has.

Indian economy may be larger than Pakistan but that's just because its population is also larger - and notably more hungry than Sudan, let alone Pakistan.

It doesn't matter much *why* India's economy is larger in this context. The fact is that India has a larger economic engine to draw upon than Pakistan, and it is sustainable in the long-term for continuous growth.

Pakistan does not. In the future it won't be able to compete at an equal level because its economy cannot sustain it.

A healthy economy forms the backbone of a powerful military and R&D. India has this. Pakistan does not.

 

[Tank131]

Do you have any date prediction for Block-4? In recent days, high-level delegations from the TAF have been briefed on Block-3, as you know, or some possibilities(may be about Pakistan aircraft, Turkish avionics) are being evaluated regarding a third-party country that we do not know yet.

This could make sense for Azerbaijan, but i dont think PAF JF-17 will ever see turkish avionics in a major way. Maybe EW suites but radars and the like will continue to be Chinese if for no other reason than the weapons packages which, specifically PL-15 and PL-10 which far outstrip anything PAF can access from any other source and anything India could field for now.

Restoring balance of power with ten times larger neighbour is fool hardy. The neighbour is on its way up and Pakistan is moving in the opposite direction. It has lead to almost bankruptcy this year for Pakistan which the IMF saved. It will go further into bankruptcy again in a year or two and that is all because of its effort to restore the balance of power. It suits India fine.

Balance of power doesnt mean equal power. Pakistan isnt trying to match india 1:1 on the battlefield, but give it enough pause to understand that sustained armed conflict will leave its economy and military in shambles. Pakistani economy has not been failing because it is trying to match India militarily. To say otherwise is idiocy. It is failing due to rampant corruption in all levels of its civil and military society, by all accounts a much more difficult problem to solve than cutting back defense spending.

 

[khansaheeb]

What does Pakistan bring to the table that Turkey already doesn't have ?

I am surprised young boys jumping up and down ... for what ?

In the Muslim world Pakistan has the most experience in design, manufactire, test and use of Warplanes.

 

[dBSPL]

This could make sense for Azerbaijan, but i dont think PAF JF-17 will ever see turkish avionics in a major way. Maybe EW suites but radars and the like will continue to be Chinese if for no other reason than the weapons packages which, specifically PL-15 and PL-10 which far outstrip anything PAF can access from any other source and anything India could field for now.

As far as I know, Azerbaijan abandoned the purchase of JF-17, the evaluations were negative. They are modernising SU-25s at TAI. And they will probably be the first user of the light attack variant of the Hurjet.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This could make sense for Azerbaijan, but i dont think PAF JF-17 will ever see turkish avionics in a major way. Maybe EW suites but radars and the like will continue to be Chinese if for no other reason than the weapons packages which, specifically PL-15 and PL-10 which far outstrip anything PAF can access from any other source and anything India could field for now.


Balance of power doesnt mean equal power. Pakistan isnt trying to match india 1:1 on the battlefield, but give it enough pause to understand that sustained armed conflict will leave its economy and military in shambles. Pakistani economy has not been failing because it is trying to match India militarily. To say otherwise is idiocy. It is failing due to rampant corruption in all levels of its civil and military society, by all accounts a much more difficult problem to solve than cutting back defense spending.

Any new JF-17 variant will use original radar and avionics designed and built in Pakistan.

 

[arslank03]

This could make sense for Azerbaijan, but i dont think PAF JF-17 will ever see turkish avionics in a major way. Maybe EW suites but radars and the like will continue to be Chinese if for no other reason than the weapons packages which, specifically PL-15 and PL-10 which far outstrip anything PAF can access from any other source and anything India could field for now.


Balance of power doesnt mean equal power. Pakistan isnt trying to match india 1:1 on the battlefield, but give it enough pause to understand that sustained armed conflict will leave its economy and military in shambles. Pakistani economy has not been failing because it is trying to match India militarily. To say otherwise is idiocy. It is failing due to rampant corruption in all levels of its civil and military society, by all accounts a much more difficult problem to solve than cutting back defense spending.

Unlikely.

Just look at all three branches, they're all undertaking a very low-key indigenization effort. How much fanfare did the PN throw up about equipping most of our modern ships with Ribat, a system which has been around for a while, but not actually inducted until now? Or the inclusion of domestic towed arrays. Domestic sonobuoys to replace American ones, domestic combat management systems too. Not to say it is perfect and ideal, but in some areas where they can swap out imports for local, they are doing. Maybe not the most critical areas but still lol.

PAF once again equipped the JF-17 b3 with fully domestic sdr's, EW gear, etc

PA VT4s have a pretty big chunk of local content. Actually, HIT is the one institution that gets local production right, sourcing components locally too not just importing and assembling.

The Forces are looking to bring defense production home, at least, that's my analysis, especially now with work on big-ticket items like domestic radars, AAM's and SAM's. Those projects should be of the utmost importance

 

[FuturePAF]

Will todays bombing by the Russians of Ukraine’s Motor Sich company have any significant or long term impact on the TR Motor effort or Turkish engine industry in general?

 

[Sinnerman108]

In the Muslim world Pakistan has the most experience in design, manufactire, test and use of Warplanes.

I am afraid that is true, only in propaganda literature.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Will todays bombing by the Russians of Ukraine’s Motor Sich company have any significant or long term impact on the TR Motor effort or Turkish engine industry in general?

Turkey has already offered to Ukraine to shift their engine companies to Turkey...

 

[altafahmed]

but i doubt any chinese weapons would make their way to KAAN. Pakistani weapons for sure, but highly unlikely Chinese or Turks would share source codes for their respective tech, just as Chinese weaponry wasnt ultimately used on Baburs.

China will not be sharing source codes with Turkiye, but with Pakistan (which already have source codes for roughly all chines weapons as to integrate on JF-17)
Also Pakistan is developing GaN based AESA radar, which could be an option to go on KAAN

 

[Shabi1]

saudis sent a req to the british to join Tempest, however, itll probably get declined, at which point i can see them joining us. If the Indians were smart, theyd push for KSA to join AMCA by offering them HUUUUGE benefits and significant workshare

I think Saudi's have considerable investment into BAE so Tempest is not far fetched for them

 

[JamD]

There's no Block-4 on the official record, not yet anyways. However, as @arslank03 found, there are some reasons to believe that one could be in the pipeline -- e.g., Pakistan's in-house AESA radar, EW/ECM and AAM programs.

Personally, I think the PAF will continue ordering JF-17s through the long-term -- even in incremental batches -- to gradually phase out the F-7PGs and Mirage III/5s (including ROSE variants). I can also see the PAF look at replacing the older JF-17s (Block-1s and Block-2s) with newer JF-17s, especially as there are some clear 'breaks' between the 1/2 and B/3 (e.g., hybrid FBW vs. 3-axis FBW; AESA radar compatibility; etc).

The PAF has also invested in configuring the JF-17 for the strike role via IREK, AZB, Taimoor ALCM, etc. It's clear that the Thunder's poised to assume a much bigger responsibility in air-to-ground/surface missions. You'd want to carry forward that work into newer airframes with even better radars and electronics.

Finally, even if the KAAN hits a snag (e.g., delays in the TR Motor engine development), we'll still see lots of other subsystems materialize and mature in the meantime, like the Aselsan TULGAR HMD/S, new-gen EW/ECM, the IRST and EOTS, manned-unmanned teaming etc. The PAF might be interested in applying these to its fleet sooner than later, so they could look at applying them to the JF-17.

So, there are clear reasons for a Block-4 and even Block-5 to exist. I think we could see a Block-4 in 2027-2029.

This could make sense for Azerbaijan, but i dont think PAF JF-17 will ever see turkish avionics in a major way. Maybe EW suites but radars and the like will continue to be Chinese if for no other reason than the weapons packages which, specifically PL-15 and PL-10 which far outstrip anything PAF can access from any other source and anything India could field for now.


Balance of power doesnt mean equal power. Pakistan isnt trying to match india 1:1 on the battlefield, but give it enough pause to understand that sustained armed conflict will leave its economy and military in shambles. Pakistani economy has not been failing because it is trying to match India militarily. To say otherwise is idiocy. It is failing due to rampant corruption in all levels of its civil and military society, by all accounts a much more difficult problem to solve than cutting back defense spending.

So the PAF certainly wants a less Chinese JF17 if you know what I mean. Their trial run for a block 4 is going to be trying systems on overhauled block 1 and 2. They have approached Turkey for this and Turkey is willing to talk. But in typical Pakistani fashion this pakistan push comes in fits and then disappears. It doesn't seem to have the force-wide backing that such an undertaking might need. But there are certainly some sections of the force thinking along those lines.