TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[ANMDT]

Turkey has to sort out the turbofan engine as soon as possible if they are serious about flying a TF-X prototype by 2030

The first batch,i think ,this is my personal thought, will fly with foreigner engines. Those engines could be manufactured in Turkey by TEI (since GE has partnership/partially owns TEI). TEI already produces parts for GE for years and engineers are experienced enough that they may need some push for a new design. There could be other partners as well, once Turkey has matured MMU design and prototypes.

RR might deliver some technologies but it may not be possible to TEI due to GE partnership (as it has been talked at some places). Shouldn't be too hard to establish a TAI subsidiary (like TEI) for Jet engines and transfer or co-host some engineers from TEI through an umbrella company, they tried to do this with TRMotor but i guess it didnt go well for jet engines.

We dont know the details but RR also has seemed to be willing for partial ToT and local production. Nobody would offer Full ToT and IP rights in golden platters, but what Turkey needs currently partial ToT and production facilities - lines for the engine which both GE and RR has offered but the decision was not finalized (some political some financial matters).

GE has already done some major ToT through T700 and Sikorsky via S70 (recalled T-70) engine and there are multiple other partnerships so i really doubt if US would cut all the ties. Yes jet engines are more crucial that is the reason why i am pointing out the future. Some engines could be produced with licence, TEI or TAI might combine past studies of their own with the new capabilities and present some ready to use domestic engine by 2035- especially for UAVs and 5th gen batch of MMU.

Turkey urges to develop key technologies(related to stealthiness, weapon bays, AESA, 360 degree awareness and Network based CMS) to hold IP rights for some reasons, not only for export, but pretty sure once we have tried to step in fighter drone projects in 2030s some countries wouldn't be pleased with it.

I believe MMU project will eventually turn out to be base project for Fighter Drones. Or don't be surprised to hear RR or GE provides engines for MIUS (Stealth Jet Drone) before than MMU.
Not everything is published on websites of the companies, after all, GE has some shares and maybe engineers in TEI and some engines might be delivered for scientific reasons.

Again, the only issue is the engine and i believe Turkey is capable of handling the rest with some minor assistance.

 

[xMustiiej70]

Can someone seriously tell me how TRMOTOR will be able to pull this off, knowing that BMC has a big part in it?

BMC is literally torpedoing so many defense projects.

 

[SgtGungHo]

The first batch,i think ,this is my personal thought, will fly with foreigner engines. Those engines could be manufactured in Turkey by TEI (since GE has partnership/partially owns TEI). TEI already produces parts for GE for years and engineers are experienced enough that they may need some push for a new design. There could be other partners as well, once Turkey has matured MMU design and prototypes.

RR might deliver some technologies but it may not be possible to TEI due to GE partnership (as it has been talked at some places). Shouldn't be too hard to establish a TAI subsidiary (like TEI) for Jet engines and transfer or co-host some engineers from TEI through an umbrella company, they tried to do this with TRMotor but i guess it didnt go well for jet engines.

We dont know the details but RR also has seemed to be willing for partial ToT and local production. Nobody would offer Full ToT and IP rights in golden platters, but what Turkey needs currently partial ToT and production facilities - lines for the engine which both GE and RR has offered but the decision was not finalized (some political some financial matters).

GE has already done some major ToT through T700 and Sikorsky via S70 (recalled T-70) engine and there are multiple other partnerships so i really doubt if US would cut all the ties. Yes jet engines are more crucial that is the reason why i am pointing out the future. Some engines could be produced with licence, TEI or TAI might combine past studies of their own with the new capabilities and present some ready to use domestic engine by 2035- especially for UAVs and 5th gen batch of MMU.

Turkey urges to develop key technologies(related to stealthiness, weapon bays, AESA, 360 degree awareness and Network based CMS) to hold IP rights for some reasons, not only for export, but pretty sure once we have tried to step in fighter drone projects in 2030s some countries wouldn't be pleased with it.

I believe MMU project will eventually turn out to be base project for Fighter Drones. Or don't be surprised to hear RR or GE provides engines for MIUS (Stealth Jet Drone) before than MMU.
Not everything is published on websites of the companies, after all, GE has some shares and maybe engineers in TEI and some engines might be delivered for scientific reasons.

Again, the only issue is the engine and i believe Turkey is capable of handling the rest with some minor assistance.

I appreciate your honest reply, but again, I think you should cross out both GE and RR off the list. What Turkey needs to develop an Indigenous turbofan engine which won't be available by 2030 anyway is technologies & IP of the core engine. Both companies won't do that. Even if (this is a very big IF) both companies agree to transfer technologies & IP of the core engine for turbofan engines, their governments won't allow it for both political and strategic reasons.

It doesn't matter how many turbofan engines Turkey promise to buy from GE & RR, they simply won't do it.

You fully understand that. Please, let's not fool ourselves. TEI or whatever Turkish companies that would be in charge of developing Turkish turbofan engines would need major help from either companies, not just some minor help.

I understand that some news are not publicized, but major news such as being selected & delivering turbofan engines to a national fighter aircraft do get mentioned on GE Aviation. Both F414 for Gripen E/F and KF-X/IF-X are mentioned on GE aviation and they are quite proud of it (in fact they are almost bragging it).

The most ironic part is, I think, the fact that Turkey needs to develop indigenous engines to power their aircrafts without interferences from other countries, yet Turkey is required to seek major help such as the core engine technolgoies from the very countries that Turkey wants to be independent of.

I think the only real alternatives are Ukrainian & Russian. However, I think they would be also reluctant to share really important core engine technologies of turbofan engines. In the end, Turkey has to fly a TF-X somehow as Greek Air Force (Hellenic Air Force) will procure F-35.

 

[BON PLAN]

The first batch,i think ,this is my personal thought, will fly with foreigner engines.

The first batch, the second one, the third... and the last one.

Excuse me but turkish technology is not as advanced as that.
See China : they are producing their own (in fact mainly copy until the last 5 years) fighters for decennials, BUT are only able to copy and paste russian engines, and with low life.
See India : Kaveri runs, but as a boat powerplant or a drone engine. Not as a fighter engine, despite 30 years of R&D effort and west engines company consulting.

A modern fighter engine is one of the most complicated item to study and fine tuned so far.
It needs to master high metallurgy (mono crystal blades, blisk), high computerised numerical simulations, composites, regulation, .... It's very complicated to be able to realize a so powerfull object in a so small volume and weight, able to run from +50°C to -50°C, able to move from iddle to full reheat in a few seconds, able to run in rain, fog, from 0 to 50.000 feet.
Even among the very few skilled company, there are some fails (not a fighter engine, but a recent exemple is the Silvercrest jet affair engine from Safran).

I'm sorry to say that you are not at 10 years to touch the sky (2030), but that this goal is far away what a medium country can do to day.

 

[ANMDT]

Even if (this is a very big IF) both companies agree to transfer technologies & IP of the core engine for turbofan engines, their governments won't allow it for both political and strategic reasons.

I have already pointed out, nobody would offer the engines in golden platters with IP rights, i don't think Turkey would seek for IP rights in the first hand but could be even fit for licensed production with partial ToT. And for such scheme, Turkey needs only minor help.

Turkish turbofan engines would need major help from either companies, not just some minor help.

I pointed out the minor help for other systems ie. production, construction, body-wing-aerodynamics fly-by-wire, for Jet Engines (I don't really know terminology for these engines so just calling them as Jet Engines) i already pointed we have to do licensed production (some thinks different, this is my opinion) and an establish a production line later to step forward for domestic engine.

I differ major and minor help in this way:
Major: Somebody do something for you, you watch them from sideways only as observer
Intermediate: Somebody do something for you, you watch from close and hand out tools /hold some parts, repeat only necessary parts later to assemble delivered packages (by producing some simple parts on your own).
Minor: You do something on your own, somebody assists you, corrects you en-route and straightens path & reduces redo with their experience, they might deliver you some critical parts.

The most ironic part is, I think, the fact that Turkey needs to develop indigenous engines to power their aircrafts without interferences from other countries, yet Turkey is required to seek major help such as the core engine technolgoies from the very countries that Turkey wants to be independent of.

This is how we learned building ships (combatants), little by little through different projects, local-licensed production, multiple partial ToT in different projects and Germans ended up realizing we have designed our own national ship when we have asked for the engines. And this is how it works mostly for defence industry related projects. This is the entire point of the ToT schemes.

I understand that some news are not publicized, but major news such as being selected & delivering turbofan engines to a national fighter aircraft do get mentioned on GE Aviation. Both F414 for Gripen E/F and KF-X/IF-X are mentioned on GE aviation and they are quite proud of it (in fact they are almost bragging it).

Those engines was delivered for prototypes, it doesn't mean it was selected for it suppose it is not big news for GE as of now. I don't know if we have luxury of building different prototypes with different engines and designs like US does, but i would be pleased to see multiple prototypes are being evaluated, eventhough i know it is not practical and possible.
After all, why would GE need to brag for KF-X or Grippen E/F projects while it runs on almighty F-18? This engine (F414) has proven itself by being selected for F-18 to serve for multiple decades.

 

[xbat]

The first batch, the second one, the third... and the last one.

Excuse me but turkish technology is not as advanced as that.
See China : they are producing their own (in fact mainly copy until the last 5 years) fighters for decennials, BUT are only able to copy and paste russian engines, and with low life.
See India : Kaveri runs, but as a boat powerplant or a drone engine. Not as a fighter engine, despite 30 years of R&D effort and west engines company consulting.

A modern fighter engine is one of the most complicated item to study and fine tuned so far.
It needs to master high metallurgy (mono crystal blades, blisk), high computerised numerical simulations, composites, regulation, .... It's very complicated to be able to realize a so powerfull object in a so small volume and weight, able to run from +50°C to -50°C, able to move from iddle to full reheat in a few seconds, able to run in rain, fog, from 0 to 50.000 feet.
Even among the very few skilled company, there are some fails (not a fighter engine, but a recent exemple is the Silvercrest jet affair engine from Safran).

I'm sorry to say that you are not at 10 years to touch the sky (2030), but that this goal is far away what a medium country can do to day.

These are your wishes, we have a working heli engine for now, we build a fighter engine too, with foreign help or not.

 

[ANMDT]

It's very complicated to be able to realize a so powerfull object in a so small volume and weight, able to run from +50°C to -50°C, able to move from iddle to full reheat in a few seconds, able to run in rain, fog, from 0 to 50.000 feet.

Good morning! most of military systems are required to run in extreme conditions. Don't exaggerate simple stuff as if it is space shuttle-capsule reentry. If i were to point out, there are harder items to design and built than those:
-fail safe mechanical systems, ie. bomb release systems.
-fail safe electronics systems with multiple-sync computers to ensure survivability and operability.
-landing gears

The first batch, the second one, the third... and the last one

And, show me one more project with large procurement, with the aim of locally production and design which does not run in batches?
China is developing those planes on her own, check out KF-X partners and you will realize what i mean.

 

[SgtGungHo]

I have already pointed out, nobody would offer the engines in golden platters with IP rights, i don't think Turkey would seek for IP rights in the first hand but could be even fit for licensed production with partial ToT. And for such scheme, Turkey needs only minor help.

Yes, but that's exactly why RR backed off from the deal. Turkey wanted IP.

Rolls-Royce dials back on project to build new Turkish fighter jet

Erdogan-backed scheme hit issues over intellectual property
https://www.ft.com/content/164c5ee0-3d1d-11e9-8c2f-30761f19a974

Without ToT & IP transfer (espeically the core engine), Turkey is basically just buying a turbofan engine from a foreign company and build it under the license. That's not an indigenous engine at all.

I pointed out the minor help for other systems ie. production, construction, body-wing-aerodynamics fly-by-wire, for Jet Engines (I don't really know terminology for these engines so just calling them as Jet Engines) i already pointed we have to do licensed production (some thinks different, this is my opinion) and an establish a production line later to step forward for domestic engine.

I was talking only about Turbofan Engine which is consisted of many very complex and complicated parts. However, the most important part is the Core Engine and accumulated data from a series of tests. This is why American, British, German and French companies are far ahead of everyoe else. For instance, the US recycled the core engine that was used in F-22 (P&W F119) for F35 (P&w F135). If Turkey is intered in developing Turbofan engine independently in the future, she must secure technologies & IP over the core technologies. I would consider this as a major help.

This is how we learned building ships (combatants), little by little through different projects, local-licensed production, multiple partial ToT in different projects and Germans ended up realizing we have designed our own national ship when we have asked for the engines. And this is how it works mostly for defence industry related projects. This is the entire point of the ToT schemes.

I think I've found fundamental issues here. Nobody, I mean, nobody will transfer their core engine technologies of Turbofan engine. This isn't shipbuilding. The technologies that are involved in Turbofan engine are far more advanced, probably except marine gas turbine engine. I am sure you are aware that GE LM2500 has been around almost for a half century. Can Turkey design & build a marine gas turbine engine that matches reliability & performance of GE LM2500? In fact, I can think of very few companies that are capable of designing & building reliable and powerful diesel engines for ships. Yes, not even gas turbine engines, but diesel engines. Designing & manufacturing reliable Turbofan engine is even more challenging. Since Turkey wants to further develop Turbofan Engine and use them for various applications such as UAV, Turkey must secure IP as well. Turkey has to build that part from sratch. Do I think is it possible if Turkey fails to secure the core engine technologies? Might be possible for something of low-grade low-bypass turbofan engine with maximum thrust of 5000-ish lbf, but high-bypass turbofan engine of 28,000+ lbf? Hahaha, very unlikely to happen.

Those engines was delivered for prototypes, it doesn't mean it was selected for it suppose it is not big news for GE as of now. I don't know if we have luxury of building different prototypes with different engines and designs like US does, but i would be pleased to see multiple prototypes are being evaluated, eventhough i know it is not practical and possible.
After all, why would GE need to brag for KF-X or Grippen E/F projects while it runs on almighty F-18? This engine (F414) has proven itself by being selected for F-18 to serve for multiple decades.

It is a big deal for GE. Both Gripen E/F and KF-X/IF-X are expected to delievery 100+ flight jets each, which makes those new projects the biggest non-US fighter jet programs in First World countries with prototypes being in production after Mitsubishi F-3 until BAe Tempest and Airbus FCAS get online. And they are locked on using F-414 for volume production. GE brags their competitiveness in the industry (against RR) as they have won to power non-US projects in both Europe and Asia worth a lot of money, which means they did not win the contract for F-18 Super Hornet by accident. I think GE made a promotional video over delivering the first F-414 engine for KF-X/IF-X/

GE would have mentioned delivering any engine for TF-X. So far I couldn't find anything on their website. However, I am happy to be corrected by any participant on this forum. Please cite me any reference from GE Aviation website. By the way, thank you for your honest reply.

 

[Tsenal]

Temel Kotil said MMU will be delivered in 2029 but did he actually clarify if they will have the indigenous engines in 2029 or if they will be integrated later? I remember İsmail Demir saying that the first blocks won't be 5th gen, is that related to the engines?

 

[BON PLAN]

Temel Kotil said MMU will be delivered in 2029 but did he actually clarify if they will have the indigenous engines in 2029 or if they will be integrated later? I remember İsmail Demir saying that the first blocks won't be 5th gen, is that related to the engines?

The sole 5th gen spec relating to the engine is the supercruise (but F35, a so called 5th gen (according to the own LM definitioon !) is not able to supercruise...).
Maybe the first birds will be "underpowered" the time to have the right and final engine ?

 

[BON PLAN]

If i were to point out, there are harder items to design and built than those:
-fail safe mechanical systems, ie. bomb release systems.
-fail safe electronics systems with multiple-sync computers to ensure survivability and operability.
-landing gears

A fighter engine is a condensate of nearly all the high technology (except biological...).
1000 x harder to fine tune than a bomb release system !
Fully computers fitted (so as to manage the real life maintenance, and the FADEC).
Metalurgically more complexe than a landing gear (single crystal blade, blisk...)
etc... composite, thermodynamic researchs....

Honnestly, when you are mastering the world class fighter engine, you can produce quite everything.

Never forget than modern fighter engines are the results of +/- 70 continuous years of high R&D efforts. In the west and in Russia. See how it is difficult for China, with very high budget and so many brains. See also the quite unsuccessfull Kaveri effort in India.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The sole 5th gen spec relating to the engine is the supercruise (but F35, a so called 5th gen (according to the own LM definitioon !) is not able to supercruise...).

Because F35 uses high by pass engine that's why F35 doesn't supercruise

 

[Rana4pak]

In metallurgy field Pakistan has so much knowledge n experience.
The Metallurgical Laboratory (also known as "Metallurgical Lab"), is an accredited multi-program national testing institute, established in 1972 to take participation in developing physio-metallurgical aspects of the clandestine atomic bomb projects.[1] It is located in the vicinity of Wah Military District and jointly runs its research program in conjuncture with Pakistan Ordnance Factory(POF) and the University of Punjab.[2]

The Metallurgical Lab was established by its chief physical chemist Khalil Qureshi of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) to study the effects and containment of nuclear fission for the civil purposes.[3][1] Throughout the 1970s, the academic programs at Metallurgical Lab was purely directed by the armed forces engineers and scientists dispatched at the Pakistan Ordnance Factory for defence and security purposes.[1] As of current, the Metallurgical Lab is currently working on civilian programs and is under the control of Pakistan National Accreditation Council of the Ministry of Science and Technology of Government of Pakistan.[4]

 

[polanski]

Turkey Established New Facilities For TFX Fighters: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/08/05/turkey-established-new-facilities-for-tfx-fighters/

 

[LeGenD]

Members are advised to be mindful of the theme of this thread and not derail it.