TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[era_shield]

F-35 is a modified F-16.

Can anyone fill me in - is this guy a troll or what?

 

[Timur]

Can anyone fill me in - is this guy a troll or what?

the biggest troll after saif al arab

 

[-SINAN-]

what is you were upset with my comments

I stopped after reading this..... i'm not upset about anything...if you are not able to understand my simple sentences than i have nothing more to say.

Then, i wondered and read it further.

I DID NOT say that Turkish Aerospace Industries CANNOT build a 5th gen fighter jet with that comment. However, since you brought up the subject. Let's examine so-called capabilities of Turkey.

1. Turkey doesn't have Aerospace Industry that is comparable with likes of Japan, China and others
2. Turkey has never designed & built a 5th gen fighter jet let alone a 4th gen fighter jet
3. Turkey has not designed & built a single turbofans engine that could power a jet of that class

i say what do you know about Turkish Industries, and it's blah blah blah....You have no right to disrespect people here.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I already mentioned this before, but J-20's canard design is bad for stealth capabilities. It inevitably increases the Radar Cross Section. There is no way around it. KFX Block I is not also a LO (low observable) fighter aircraft as it misses out some stealth features you can find from the 5th gen US jets.

Design-wise, TF-X is more stealthy than other non-US 5th gen fighter jet projects, except Mitsubishi F-3 and few others. However, I wonder why Turkey now claims that TF-X would start as a 4.5(+++)th gen fighter jet. The only logical explaination is that they are not confident to implement all stealth features from their concept arts & promotional images from Block I.

Bro NASA said canard is extremely stealthy especially from head on posture for experimental X-36 project which have canard with stealthy airframe

 

[SgtGungHo]

I stopped after reading this..... i'm not upset about anything...if you are not able to understand my simple sentences than i have nothing more to say.

Then, i wondered and read it further.


Just a more bunch of crap...i say what do you know about Turkish Industries, and it's blah blah blah....You have no right to disrespect people here. We can easily treat you like a troll here.

Yes, you are upset because I ask hardball questions over capabilities of Aerospace Industry in Turkey. I am the one doesn't mind getting corrected and educated on new things that I did not know before.

On the other hand, you took my reasonable doubts over Turkey's capabilities of designing & building a 5th gen fighter jet as "disrespect" and launched personal attacks on me without actually answering the questions that I presented for TF-X.

You are not interested in constructive conversations. You don't want anyone to point out difficulties that Turkey will face over the so-called 5th gen fighter jet project. Well, I am not interested in mindlessly assuring you that your wishful thinking over TF-X would magically come true. It doesn't matter that you bury your head in the sand. The problems are real.

Back to the engine, could anyone cite me any evidence from GE or the US government that they have agreed to provide F110 engines to Turkey for TF-X? I could not find any reference on GE Aviation website. I am happy to be corrected on this matter. Or TF-X is another Altay? A fighter aircraft without any engine? Let's keep it real. You don't want TF-X turning into another Altay and neither do I.

 

[Indos]

In my opinion Turkish engine development should be more concentrated on supplying Turkish cruise missile like SOM. More resources and money should be given to this effort. Later, the engine should be developed to power Turkish next drone program (wing man drone, etc).

While for TFX, it should use foreign engine to speed up the program. Before even basic design is completed, Turkey should already be quite sure about the engine of TFX and has already made a contract with the engine producer. It is because basic design and detail design is worked based on the engine that will power the plane. Turkey can dream having a jet fighter being powered by their own made engine after their turbojet engine for drone is proven to be quite good and reliable.

The process should be like this = turbojet for cruise missile> turbojet for drone > turbojet/turbofan for fighter.

This is why I think Kale must be the one who develop the engine so there is continuation between the process. Or it can be a combine force between Kale and TEI since the start.

 

[Bogeyman]

There are also drawbacks to using a foreign engine. Due to the export restrictions for the engine, you will cripple the export of the aircraft. The reason why is it so hard to be formulated in cooperation with the British, Turkey is asking to sell aircraft without adhering to export restrictions

 

[-SINAN-]

Yes, you are upset because I ask hardball questions over capabilities of Aerospace Industry in Turkey. I am the one doesn't mind getting corrected and educated on new things that I did not know before.

On the other hand, you took my reasonable doubts over Turkey's capabilities of designing & building a 5th gen fighter jet as "disrespect" and launched personal attacks on me without actually answering the questions that I presented for TF-X.

You are not interested in constructive conversations. You don't want anyone to point out difficulties that Turkey will face over the so-called 5th gen fighter jet project. Well, I am not interested in mindlessly assuring you that your wishful thinking over TF-X would magically come true. It doesn't matter that you bury your head in the sand. The problems are real.

Back to the engine, could anyone cite me any evidence from GE or the US government that they have agreed to provide F110 engines to Turkey for TF-X? I could not find any reference on GE Aviation website. I am happy to be corrected on this matter. Or TF-X is another Altay? A fighter aircraft without any engine? Let's keep it real. You don't want TF-X turning into another Altay and neither do I.

However, since you brought up the subject. Let's examine so-called capabilities of Turkey.

1. Turkey doesn't have Aerospace Industry that is comparable with likes of Japan, China and others
2. Turkey has never designed & built a 5th gen fighter jet let alone a 4th gen fighter jet
3. Turkey has not designed & built a single turbofans engine that could power a jet of that class

This not asking questions...This is extrapolating, Like saying Turkey have not produced any helicopter, blah, blah, so it can't produce any helicopter. However, Turkey has produced helicopter without having any helicopter production experience in the past. So, extrapolating doesn't works for most of the time.

Like what do yo know about TAI's composite production facility, or how many R&D engineers work in TAI, Or Super Plastic Forming capabilities....you know nothing but come and saying "Turkey can't produce this, because it has not made a 5th gen before"..... like. Yeah, whatever.

Anyways, instead of littering our section, i would appreciate if you can go to open a thread in another section, and talk about Turkish Industry Capabilities by yourself. As you can see no one is interested in your non-sense.

 

[SgtGungHo]

However, since you brought up the subject. Let's examine so-called capabilities of Turkey.

1. Turkey doesn't have Aerospace Industry that is comparable with likes of Japan, China and others
2. Turkey has never designed & built a 5th gen fighter jet let alone a 4th gen fighter jet
3. Turkey has not designed & built a single turbofans engine that could power a jet of that class

This not asking questions...This is extrapolating, Like saying Turkey have not produced any helicopter, blah, blah, so it can't produce any helicopter. However, Turkey has produced helicopter without having any helicopter production experience in the past. So, extrapolating doesn't works for most of the time.

Like what do yo know about TAI's composite production facility, or how many R&D engineers work in TAI, Or Super Plastic Forming capabilities....you know nothing but come and saying "Turkey can't produce this, because it has not made a 5th gen before"..... like. Yeah, whatever.

Anyways, instead of littering our section, i would appreciate if you can go to open a thread in another section, and talk about Turkish Industry Capabilities by yourself. As you can see no one is interested in your non-sense.

My godness, mate your lack of attention to what others say and poor comprehension skills are frustrating.

Yes, I did ask you questions. I listed reasons why I believe I have my doubts over Turkey's capabailities of designing & building a 5th gen fighter gen and I started my question over the turbofan engine which is the most important part of aircraft.

"This is why I asked - "Does Turkey get an approval from the US congress over the sales of F110?" I mean, without any engine, how could you proceed with the project? This is crazy unless of course you believe somehow Turkey who doesn't have industrial capacities can somehow design & build a powerful indigenous turbofan engine within a very short period of time (which would not be even impossible for GE or RR) before the start of detailed design of TF-X or even production of prototype. How many years left? 3 years? 6 years? You understand that the aircraft needs to go through a series of tests before actual flight tests and that could take years as well, right?

Yes, please educate me how this insane plan is workable. Like I said, I am more than happy to be corrected."

And I didn't say anything about helicopter. Stop clutching a strawman and pay your attention to the question I presented. What would Turkey do with the turbofan engine?

However since you brought up helicopter, I will talk some sense to you. Turkey could build AW/TAI T129 ATAK, because it was a variant of existing Agusta A129 and AgustaWestland did transfer IP & technologies to Turkey.

With TF-X, you have to build a 5th gen fighter jet from scratch and it is one of the most challenging engnieering projects. Mate, how on the earth you think this is the same situation with Agusta A129 unless you are absolutely you are out of your mind.

TAI's composite production facility, or how many R&D engineers work in TAI, Or Super Plastic Forming capabilities

Yeah, mate, I am sorry to say this - you may take pride in them, but they are not so impressive comparing with other countries with actual advanced aerospace industries such as Japan and Russia who are either struggling to develop a proper 5th gen fighter aircraft or trying to find another partner who could help their 5th gen project. Even then I am happy to learn new developments from Turkey.

Back to the engine, does Turkey have any realistic way to procure suitable turbofan engines? Please don't mention any pipedream such as indigenous turbofan engine which is unrealistic for the given schedule unless you want to turn the project into a vaporware.

I don't want to see this beautifully designed aircraft, TF-X, turns into another Altay. This is why I ask hardball questions. I am happy to be corrected. I am interested in productive & educated talks. However, it seems that's not possible with a person like you who just want compliment and easily get offended.

 

[Nutuk]

@SgtGungHo

Everything is "impossible" until you do

 

[Ruhnama]

In my opinion Turkish engine development should be more concentrated on supplying Turkish cruise missile like SOM. More resources and money should be given to this effort. Later, the engine should be developed to power Turkish next drone program (wing man drone, etc).

While for TFX, it should use foreign engine to speed up the program. Before even basic design is completed, Turkey should already be quite sure about the engine of TFX and has already made a contract with the engine producer. It is because basic design and detail design is worked based on the engine that will power the plane. Turkey can dream having a jet fighter being powered by their own made engine after their turbojet engine for drone is proven to be quite good and reliable.

The process should be like this = turbojet for cruise missile> turbojet for drone > turbojet/turbofan for fighter.

This is why I think Kale must be the one who develop the engine so there is continuation between the process. Or it can be a combine force between Kale and TEI since the start.

Like F-5 tiger engine. Developed from target missile adm 20 quaill

 

[xMustiiej70]

The countries that is able to design, produce and assemble turbofan engines are countries that needed them, invested in them and commited to it. Turkey HAS to make their own engines, yesterday there wasn't a need but today and tomorrow, we have to.

 

[Ansu fati]

Imagine if this japanese guy was teacher...
Those poor kids would’ve been taught to give up as soon as first obstacle emerges in front of them

 

[ANMDT]

Back to the engine, does Turkey have any realistic way to procure suitable turbofan engines? Please don't mention any pipedream such as indigenous turbofan engine which is unrealistic for the given schedule unless you want to turn the project into a vaporware.

With TRMotor (BMC's Junk) it is impossible, through other partnerships with more suitable state owned companies it is possible. The future will tell it all. However, again the future tell us who is/are the partner/s.
And it has been verified that some engines are delivered for prototypes, some says it is F-110 or whatever ,SSB president ( Defence Industry-Acquisition Office Presidency) has made statement regarding to that.
After all first target is to develop 4+ gen Fighter by 2030, First batches will be 4+ Gen, following batches will be 5th gen which will be procured by 2035 or 2040 (the date which F-16s will be scrapped). There has been some information that UK assists Turkey in TF-X MMU but again i am not sure.
The goal is to develop indigenous engine through some ToT especially for UAVs, since it is harder to acquire engines for UAVs for some reason.

 

[SgtGungHo]

With TRMotor (BMC's Junk) it is impossible, through other partnerships with more suitable state owned companies it is possible. The future will tell it all. However, again the future tell us who is/are the partner/s.
And it has been verified that some engines are delivered for prototypes, some says it is F-110 or whatever ,SSB president ( Defence Industry-Acquisition Office Presidency) has made statement regarding to that.
After all first target is to develop 4+ gen Fighter by 2030, First batches will be 4+ Gen, following batches will be 5th gen which will be procured by 2035 or 2040 (the date which F-16s will be scrapped). There has been some information that UK assists Turkey in TF-X MMU but again i am not sure.
The goal is to develop indigenous engine through some ToT especially for UAVs, since it is harder to acquire engines for UAVs for some reason.

Thank you for your reasonable and informed reply. The question is obviously who would be the partner(s) and whether they are happy to share turbofan engine technologies, espeically the core engine technologies & IP with Turkey.

I am sure you would agree that GE won't do that. I highly doubt the US congress will allow that to happen even if GE agrees to do ToT to Turkey. In fact, I can't find any information on GE Aviation website of GE delivering F110 engines to Turkey for TF-X even though GE is alledgedly selected to supply turbofan engines for TF-X. BAe systems will be more than happy to get involved in the project as long as they get paid without much of ToT, but I doubt RR is interested in sharing ToT & IP of their turbofan engines. They are not particularly desperate for new contracts as BAe Tempest will use RR turbofan engines.

Regardless, Turkey has to sort out the turbofan engine as soon as possible if they are serious about flying a TF-X prototype by 2030. The design team needs the engine for their project. I absolutely understand Turkey's needs to develop an indigenous engine. However, do you think it is realistic to fly a TF-X prototype with a pair powerful turbofan engines which match the performance of let's say F110 by 2030?