Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[sathruvinasakh]

Su-30MKI is currently under MK3 upgrade.

Under this upgrade it will get smart skins along with wing leading edge mounted L-band radar arrays.And few more modifications and add-ons to the existing firecontrol systems with possible new Zuk radar wile incorporating the structural frame for brahmos capability (to carry 3 missiles against 1 which was perceived with no modifications to structure)
After this upgrade MKI will be able to detect a target aircraft with RCS of .005 sqm at a distance of 90+km in the front 180 degree hemisphere against the usual 60-90 degree.

Along with the electronic upgrades it will come with a lot more of advanced weaponry which includes the ultra long range AAM,multi-guided weapons(includes dual guide laser and TV,....)

 

[IceCold]

The F16/52 is easily the best fighter that PAF has and IMO is stil bEST OPTION TO TACKLE THE MASSIVE su30mki fleet of 230 or maybe even 280 PLANES.

Stil cant believe PAF ordered only 18 block52s

They were offered 36 by USA

Dont worry we have other cards up our sleeves.

 

[hj786]

please read the below links you will get a pretty much good idea about SU-30 MKI

Su-30MKI compared with the F-16C and F-18E/F
Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please don't give me links to trash, that first article says the Flanker-H has "better air-to-air missiles". Has the writer ever heard of the AIM-120 AMRAAM? It is widely regarded to be the best medium range AAM in the world, the Israelis swear by it. The second article has just been edited by me to say "Su-30MKI is considered far superior to the F-22 Raptor due to its anti-gravity technology." I guess you're going to take that as true also.

 

[Storm Force]

HJ786.

if this particular debate is about mki versis Thunder surely wat the F22 can do and the range/performance of the aim amraam 120 is irrelevant..

The topic after hundreds of pages is suerly can PAFs new jf17 live and fight with an IAF fleet of upto 280 flankers.

There are many people from both sides and neutrals who believe that jf17 cannot get even close to mki.

The reasons have been highlighted numerous times but include

mki superior speed with twin engines ,, TVC cannards for AOA ,,massive radar and huge fuel and weapons load.

The only argument you have given us is Awacs support( which does not exist as yet in paf as yet) or lower RCS.

hj786 i hope you realise that there are already well over 100 mki in iaf service in 6 sqds. versis just 8 prototypes of thunders which have not passed ioc/foc as we speak.

 

[sathruvinasakh]

Please don't give me links to trash, that first article says the Flanker-H has "better air-to-air missiles". Has the writer ever heard of the AIM-120 AMRAAM? It is widely regarded to be the best medium range AAM in the world, the Israelis swear by it. The second article has just been edited by me to say "Su-30MKI is considered far superior to the F-22 Raptor due to its anti-gravity technology." I guess you're going to take that as true also.

But here is a snippet for MKI fans.With the lastest in advancements of Russian technology and their ability to track a stealthy F-22,B-2 using L band wing root leading edge radars arrays is well documented.
And the new upgrade will feature the same on Su-30MKI.

Given the capabilities of MKI ,i.e the dual seat with all the modern avionics and its adaptability to act as a mini-AWACS by just switching on a button and its capability to detect stealth and its high speed and range and ability to carry >8000kg of disposable weapons and the networking feature with fellow buddies or mother AWACS leaves no stone unreturned during its flight be it in indian airspace or enemy airspace.
Both Su-35 and new MKI upgrades will feature stealth detection technologies.
While the current 110 aircraft may have to be upgraded to this config and the 120 to be built will directly include the upgrades.
The next 50 to be procured will be off the shelf with the 2012 upgrades.

 

[hj786]

if this particular debate is about mki versis Thunder surely wat the F22 can do and the range/performance of the aim amraam 120 is irrelevant.. The topic after hundreds of pages is suerly can PAFs new jf17 live and fight with an IAF fleet of upto 280 flankers. There are many people from both sides and neutrals who believe that jf17 cannot get even close to mki. The reasons have been highlighted numerous times but include mki superior speed with twin engines ,, TVC cannards for AOA ,,massive radar and huge fuel and weapons load. The only argument you have given us is Awacs support( which does not exist as yet in paf as yet) or lower RCS. hj786 i hope you realise that there are already well over 100 mki in iaf service in 6 sqds. versis just 8 prototypes of thunders which have not passed ioc/foc as we speak.

Same old crap has been countered many times by myself and others in previous pages. Are you still incapable of countering the following?

The JF-17 has tactical data-links to interface with other platforms such as AWACS aircraft, so it would always be aware of an opposing aircraft's position. The radar warning receiver systems would also help here. It has BVR AAMs and a radar with around 100 km range against even fairly small targets - which the mki isn't. For close range combat it will have 5th generation short range missiles with TVC and infra-red imaging seekers, capable of manoeuvring at around 50g, which the mki can't. These missiles will be slaved to a helmet-mounted sights/display system, and the mki is not invisible so JF-17 pilots can see it and designate it for their missiles. It has a missile approach warning system which is integrated with not only UV/IR sensors giving 360 degree coverage, but also the radar warning receiver and electronic warfare systems (radar jammer housed in the rectangular fairing at the tip of the vertical tail fin). The mki's missiles are also not invisible to UV/IR sensors, unless they don't have rocket motors. According to a Chinese article, the onboard radar jammer is capable of focusing all its jamming power in any direction. There are sources for all of this.

Doesn't really matter if they don't have AWACS support right now, they will have it in the near future.

About all that upgrades stuff: if the flanker's radar is so great, why does it need upgrades?

 

[MALIKATIF]

i think su-30 has a tendendency ,but it is made in many years back,but jf 17 made with todays latest technology thats is the point for which india is also in great think that paf improving its aircraft with latest technology

 

[beckham]

It is obvious to any normal person that by denying the above facts,YOU are the ones living in blissful ignorance. You can repeat your BS a million times, it isn't enough to make it the truth.

Thats what I was trying to tell you ! Just have a look at you post # 1053,

LINK- http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/5354-su-30mki-jf-17-air-fight-71.html#post511727

''If that helps you sleep better, keep believing that. The reality is that you can't accept the mki is still just an upgraded flanker and the JF-17 was developed to be capable of defeating it.''

And how exactly is JF-17 designed defeat MKI ?

I feel sorry for you because you can't handle the facts in my posts, so you want me to stay quiet.

Sorry I don't see any facts on your post ! On the other hand I have posted enough points to support my claim !

LINK- http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/5354-su-30mki-jf-17-air-fight-71.html#post51174

-Next time post something to back up your claim !

 

[hj786]

And how exactly is JF-17 designed defeat MKI ?

I said it was "developed to be capable of defeating it." An example of some of the modifications made to the design in light of such threats are the radar jammer in the tail fin.

Sorry I don't see any facts on your post !

I think this can be easily explained: you know very little to nothing about the JF-17. You are blinded to the facts by national pride, whereas I'm insisting they should be taken into account.

-Next time post something to back up your claim !

Here you go:
The JF-17 Thunder: A hefty punch at an affordable price.
The JF-17 Thunder: A hefty punch at an affordable price
Usman Ansari gives a project update on the Sino-Pakistani JF-17, which will be entering full production next year.
An edited version of the above article appeared in Vol:8 No.4 of Combat Aircraft

A link to the publisher's website:
Combat Aircraft Magazine | Back Issues | Volume 8
Thunder Storm - Usman Ansari details the JF-17 'Thunder' fighter developed jointly by China and Pakistan, as it enters service with the Pakistan AF

I have posted enough points to support my claim !

No you haven't because none of your points counter the following:

The JF-17 has tactical data-links to interface with other platforms such as AWACS aircraft, so it would always be aware of an opposing aircraft's position. The radar warning receiver systems would also help here. It has BVR AAMs and a radar with around 100 km range against even fairly small targets - which the mki isn't. For close range combat it will have 5th generation short range missiles with TVC and infra-red imaging seekers, capable of manoeuvring at around 50g, which the mki can't. These missiles will be slaved to a helmet-mounted sights/display system, and the mki is not invisible so JF-17 pilots can see it and designate it for their missiles. It has a missile approach warning system which is integrated with not only UV/IR sensors giving 360 degree coverage, but also the radar warning receiver and electronic warfare systems (radar jammer housed in the rectangular fairing at the tip of the vertical tail fin). The mki's missiles are also not invisible to UV/IR sensors, unless they don't have rocket motors. According to a Chinese article, the onboard radar jammer is capable of focusing all its jamming power in any direction. There are sources for all of this.

 

[notorious_eagle]

hj786, bro you are just wasting time. Our Indian friends on these forums have simply been blinded by their patriotism, they will use the same arguments over and over (MKI has PESA, TVC, Twin Engines blah blah blah). Although you have countered them perfectly, they are still using those same old b** **** excuses. My suggestion is let the fanboys argue, give your opinion only when the other member actually gives a reasonable and a good reply.

 

[beckham]

The development project was lengthened to counter "new threats".

So not for finding a radar ? Thanks for the info !

I think this can be easily explained: you know very little to nothing about the JF-17. This could be because you're blinded by national pride.

Look who is talking !

Here you go:
The JF-17 Thunder: A hefty punch at an affordable price.
The JF-17 Thunder: A hefty punch at an affordable price
Usman Ansari gives a project update on the Sino-Pakistani JF-17, which will be entering full production next year.
An edited version of the above article appeared in Vol:8 No.4 of Combat Aircraft

A link to the publisher's website:
Combat Aircraft Magazine | Back Issues | Volume 8
Thunder Storm - Usman Ansari details the JF-17 'Thunder' fighter developed jointly by China and Pakistan, as it enters service with the Pakistan AF

I appreciate that, but still u didn't prove the point !
The only thing I found interesting is about the High Off Bore Sight which is said to have engagement ability to engage threats in the rear hemisphere, and targets with incredible maneuverability ( like MKI).But the advantage it offers against MKI in close range engagement is still negligible as MKI also has ability engage threats of up to 60 km in rear hemisphere !

 

[Storm Force]

The one thing i have learnt in life in this world you get what you pay for.

A $15m dollar warplane is exactly wat PAF wanted ie low cost meduim tech war plane.

To claim its a mki killer is outraegous. The flanker is as suggested multiple times the most advanced flanker in the world bar su35 (which has only just been ordered by Russia)

An mki costs $45m each. 3 x the cost of a Thunder but half the cost of a Typhoon Rafael F16/60 or F18SH.

All of the above include hi tech 21st century tech which does not exist on a Thunder like

A TVC engine mki & F22 only fighters in the world to have TVC engines giving extreme AOA. (angles of attack)
Cannards ON mki/su35 rafael & Typhoon & J10 (improved agility)
Pesa/ Aesa radar double the tracking range of a Thunders KLJ Radar
IRST system (non existant on thunders) standard on mki

HJ786 you made a remark about why are IAF giving MLU upgrades if its so good.

The reason is its good TODAY but IAF know its has room for improvement

Changing the bars pesa radar to new 5th generation Aesa doubles tracking range from 200km to 400km

Adding the KH172 ramjet missle gives IAF a killer missle at 200km from current R77/R27 at just 90km

The difference between Thunder and mki is simple these are real improvements that started 5 years ago and are here now today ready for mlu in next 120-180 or so fighters that IAF inducts.

HJ786 your talking about data links RWR and bvr missles on the JF17 yet IAF has had such systems for a decade " its yesterdays technology"

 

[PakShaheen79]

The one thing i have learnt in life in this world you get what you pay for.

A $15m dollar warplane is exactly wat PAF wanted ie low cost meduim tech war plane.

To claim its a mki killer is outraegous. The flanker is as suggested multiple times the most advanced flanker in the world bar su35 (which has only just been ordered by Russia)

An mki costs $45m each. 3 x the cost of a Thunder but half the cost of a Typhoon Rafael F16/60 or F18SH.

All of the above include hi tech 21st century tech which does not exist on a Thunder like

A TVC engine mki & F22 only fighters in the world to have TVC engines giving extreme AOA. (angles of attack)
Cannards ON mki/su35 rafael & Typhoon & J10 (improved agility)
Pesa/ Aesa radar double the tracking range of a Thunders KLJ Radar
IRST system (non existant on thunders) standard on mki

HJ786 you made a remark about why are IAF giving MLU upgrades if its so good.

The reason is its good TODAY but IAF know its has room for improvement

Changing the bars pesa radar to new 5th generation Aesa doubles tracking range from 200km to 400km

Adding the KH172 ramjet missle gives IAF a killer missle at 200km from current R77/R27 at just 90km

The difference between Thunder and mki is simple these are real improvements that started 5 years ago and are here now today ready for mlu in next 120-180 or so fighters that IAF inducts.

HJ786 your talking about data links RWR and bvr missles on the JF17 yet IAF has had such systems for a decade " its yesterdays technology"

This is problem... Everytime it is a VS threat Indian friends always compare Tomorrow's IAF with current PAF. Well how come you think that IAF will go for MLU and PAF will not react. Wait for 2nd batch of Thunders you will see a lot more improvement there as well.

I am not saying after these Thunder will become a MKI killer or something like that but point is improvement is a constant process in every AF and PAF is no exception in this regard.

 

[beckham]

The JF-17 has tactical data-links to interface with other platforms such as AWACS aircraft, so it would always be aware of an opposing aircraft's position. The radar warning receiver systems would also help here. It has BVR AAMs and a radar with around 100 km range against even fairly small targets - which the mki isn't.

As of now PAF don't have an AWAC, The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has ordered five Erieye radar system !

PAF

JF-17: ~100 km

Erieye : ~ 350 km

IAF

su-30mki :350 km search range.

phalcon: 600km+ / 500km+ (?)

Tell me who has got the better advantage of AWAC ?

For close range combat it will have 5th generation short range missiles with TVC and infra-red imaging seekers, capable of manoeuvring at around 50g, which the mki can't. These missiles will be slaved to a helmet-mounted sights/display system, and the mki is not invisible so JF-17 pilots can see it and designate it for their missiles. It has a missile approach warning system which is integrated with not only UV/IR sensors giving 360 degree coverage, but also the radar warning receiver and electronic warfare systems (radar jammer housed in the rectangular fairing at the tip of the vertical tail fin). The mki's missiles are also not invisible to UV/IR sensors, unless they don't have rocket motors. According to a Chinese article, the onboard radar jammer is capable of focusing all its jamming power in any direction. There are sources for all of this.

Which 5th generation short range missile are you talking about ? .honest

anywazz...gud nyte !

 

[hj786]

So not for finding a radar ? Thanks for the info !

Radars and avionics were available since 1996. There was the Thomson-CSF Blue Hawk from Britain, the Thales RC-400 from France and the FIAR Grifo S-7 from Italy all on offer, although Blue Hawk was withdrawn after 1998. Delays were because the PAF kept changing the specifications to improve the fighter according to the Chinese.

Look who is talking !

If I were blinded by patriotism to the same extent as yourself, I would refuse to acknowledge the Su-30MKI's features just as you refuse to acknowledge the JF-17's features.

I appreciate that, but still u didn't prove the point !
The only thing I found interesting is about the High Off Bore Sight which is said to have engagement ability to engage threats in the rear hemisphere, and targets with incredible maneuverability ( like MKI).But the advantage it offers against MKI in close range engagement is still negligible as MKI also has ability engage threats of up to 60 km in rear hemisphere !

The high off-boresight missiles don't necessarily provide an advantage to the JF-17, but they do level the playing field by negating the Su-30's advantages (to a certain extent). If you want to deny simple logic such as this, what can I do?
As for engaging threats in the rear hemisphere, what about threats that are shooting back, such as the JF-17?

The one thing i have learnt in life in this world you get what you pay for.

Why didn't you learn that certain sources give you more value for money?

To claim its a mki killer is outraegous.

I never said the JF-17 is an mki killer, my arguments show that the odds are simply not as one-sided as you guys try to portray. Why do you guys seem to struggle so much to counter the simple arguments I post? You can repeat all that crap about PESA radar range and canards and high AoA as much as you like, I've explained a hundred times how the JF-17 can counter them to a certain extent.

HJ786 you made a remark about why are IAF giving MLU upgrades if its so good. The reason is its good TODAY but IAF know its has room for improvement Changing the bars pesa radar to new 5th generation Aesa doubles tracking range from 200km to 400km Adding the KH172 ramjet missle gives IAF a killer missle at 200km from current R77/R27 at just 90km The difference between Thunder and mki is simple these are real improvements that started 5 years ago and are here now today ready for mlu in next 120-180 or so fighters that IAF inducts. HJ786 your talking about data links RWR and bvr missles on the JF17 yet IAF has had such systems for a decade " its yesterdays technology"

But according to you guys the flanker doesn't need those upgrades to be considered invincible when compared with the JF-17, so why bother to bring them up? The rest of the world does not consider jam-proof data-links, RWR capable of intercepting AESA radars with LPI capability, BVR AAMs with ramjet motors "yesterday's technology".