A Very Interesting Aspect of Indus Shield 23 Exercise

[NooriNuth]

LoL , so if indian army has anti-Tank missles that means pak should sell thier tanks ?
Every assett has a value and it forces the enemy to carry counter measures which wastes resources and man power.

You guys take garbage media too seriously.

No, the garbage statement was from this garbage guy. The defense minister of India.

 

[Jango]

I always thought CM-400AKG is for sea targets only.
But this shows that the Mach 5 quasi ballistic missile is for ground targets also.
I am pretty sure the land version is different from the sea version. At least in the path . If it follows same path as for sea targets, it will rise to 60km altitude then dive on target, and using gravity to attain hypersonic speed.
But in that case it will be visible to the target from far away.

Wouldn't the same apply in case of sea targets?

 

[Goenitz]

The purpose of SEAD is suppression and not destruction necessarily...can't say more than this.

so in the end aluminum flare, cluster, if not HE? all version have passive radars homing!, or do some versions have something different?

Wouldn't the same apply in case of sea targets?

but there is less clutter? one metal giant in a non-reflective background?

 

[NAVDEEP DHALIWAL]

No, the garbage statement was from this garbage guy. The defense minister of India.
View attachment 964548

I don't know and I don't care what politicians or media persons say on both sides.
U said something illogical and I corrected you. Always reply only if u have something useful to add.
Ofcourse if there's some scientist saying something do share.

 

[NooriNuth]

What's the common thing between anti-radar and anti-Ship missiles? They both climb up to attain altitude.

But the difference?

Anti-radar missile will climb up right after launch.

Anti-ship missile usually skims to the surface and climbs up in final stages of the attack aka pop-up attack.

The purpose of SEAD is suppression and not destruction necessarily...can't say more than this.

@Windjammer

CM-400 is different from other anti ship missiles. Most ASM are cruise missiles. CM-400 is Quasi ballistic.

The problem with CM-400 is that to comply with being carried by small jets such as JF-17, it had to be lite , weighing 910kg, but to kill a ship, it also had to carry a significant sized warhead.
AVIC says either a 150kg blast fragmented warhead or 200kg penetration warhead.
For a range of 100 to 240 km, while reaching speeds of Mach 4+ in terminal phase.
AVIC gives a minimum range of 100km , because of ballistic flight path to be followed for speed and range.
Cruise missiles don't have minimum range, ballistic have.
Likewise cruise missiles like Brahmos/Oniks weigh 3 times as much and carry lots of fuel to sustain leveled supersonic flight all the way.
CM 400 don't have that luxury. Its too light and carries little fuel. Cannot sustain leveled flight as atmospheric drag will eat up all the range .
Unless I am wrong in my thinking that 100km minimum range is due to mandatory quasi ballistic path, and its the range while level flying?.
But the question is, will a JF-17 want to come to within 100km of a S-400 ?

However for 240km maximum range it "Must" rise the 60km Altitude to comply with maximum range expectations, while carrying that much weight of the warhead and reaching those high mach numbers. Otherwise it doesn't carry enough fuel to accomplish those requirements.

That's why AVIC specified launch envelope for JF-17 firing CM-400 is , while flying at Mach 0.7 and M0.9 at an elevation between 26,200ft and 39,400ft.
At this altitude, the line of sight is 300km +.
Meaning the JF-17 even before firing the missile will be visible and tracked by S-400 radars.

So, what i think is ( and I can be wrong) that the JF-17 will fly at lower altitude until about 200km from target, rise on full afterburner to the required launch altitude. Fire the missile, and dive down back to safety, hiding behind the earths curvature, from S-400 radars .
While S-400 units will immediately detect and track the launch, and get busy defending. Another salvo of conventional Raad or Babur will fly below the radar, to the target and do the actual job.

 

[NooriNuth]

Wouldn't the same apply in case of sea targets?

Probably yes. That's why I have always been skeptical of this missile. No wonder PAF only bought 50 units, as per one of the MODP annual reports.
In my opinion it can't be a mainstay weapon, but an added extra and a "Red herring " or a distraction, so that the mainstay weapons Babur and Raad can work more effectively.

 

[Jango]

CM-400 is different from other anti ship missiles. Most ASM are cruise missiles. CM-400 is Quasi ballistic.

The problem with CM-400 is that to comply with being carried by small jets such as JF-17, it had to be lite , weighing 910kg, but to kill a ship, it also had to carry a significant sized warhead.
AVIC says either a 150kg blast fragmented warhead or 200kg penetration warhead.
For a range of 100 to 240 km, while reaching speeds of Mach 4+ in terminal phase.
AVIC gives a minimum range of 100km , because of ballistic flight path to be followed for speed and range.
Cruise missiles don't have minimum range, ballistic have.
Likewise cruise missiles like Brahmos/Oniks weigh 3 times as much and carry lots of fuel to sustain leveled supersonic flight all the way.
CM 400 don't have that luxury. Its too light and carries little fuel. Cannot sustain leveled flight as atmospheric drag will eat up all the range .
Unless I am wrong in my thinking that 100km minimum range is due to mandatory quasi ballistic path, and its the range while level flying?.
But the question is, will a JF-17 want to come to within 100km of a S-400 ?

However for 240km maximum range it "Must" rise the 60km Altitude to comply with maximum range expectations, while carrying that much weight of the warhead and reaching those high mach numbers. Otherwise it doesn't carry enough fuel to accomplish those requirements.

That's why AVIC specified launch envelope for JF-17 firing CM-400 is , while flying at Mach 0.7 and M0.9 at an elevation between 26,200ft and 39,400ft.
At this altitude, the line of sight is 300km +.
Meaning the JF-17 even before firing the missile will be visible and tracked by S-400 radars.

So, what i think is ( and I can be wrong) that the JF-17 will fly at lower altitude until about 200km from target, rise on full afterburner to the required launch altitude. Fire the missile, and dive down back to safety, hiding behind the earths curvature, from S-400 radars .
While S-400 units will immediately detect and track the launch, and get busy defending. Another salvo of conventional Raad or Babur will fly below the radar, to the target and do the actual job.

What's the time it takes for the missile to hit the target at 200km on this flight path?

I could do a few basic calculations and get the time if we have the speed at which it is launched, speed at high altitude phase etc.

Considering it is ballistic, wouldn't the ship just move away if it takes sufficient time to reach the target without guidance?

 

[TriptiD]

The collapse of the Iron Dome - the product of the ultra clever and cunning folks the mankind has ever seen- shows how vulnerable the sedentary air defenses are against even the rudimentary forces. Offense is the best defense....

Fortune favors the brave who is ready to die....

The super arrogant Goliaths are born to die at the hands of the super God-fearing Davids....

You may have your metaphors mixed up. Goliath was Philistine and David was Jewish.

 

[Jammer]

You may have your metaphors mixed up. Goliath was Philistine and David was Jewish.

"Metaphors", I'm not sure you know how to use that word. "Shortly after his battle with Goliath, David joined forces with the Philistines (specifically, the king of the city of Gath)", he essentially was/became a Philistine.

 

[TriptiD]

"Metaphors", I'm not sure you know how to use that word. "Shortly after his battle with Goliath, David joined forces with the Philistines (specifically, the king of the city of Gath)", he essentially was/became a Philistine.

Lol, David was King of Israel. Just because he made a tactical alliance with Gath doesn't mean he became a Philistine. Lol.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

CM-400 is different from other anti ship missiles. Most ASM are cruise missiles. CM-400 is Quasi ballistic.

The problem with CM-400 is that to comply with being carried by small jets such as JF-17, it had to be lite , weighing 910kg, but to kill a ship, it also had to carry a significant sized warhead.
AVIC says either a 150kg blast fragmented warhead or 200kg penetration warhead.
For a range of 100 to 240 km, while reaching speeds of Mach 4+ in terminal phase.
AVIC gives a minimum range of 100km , because of ballistic flight path to be followed for speed and range.
Cruise missiles don't have minimum range, ballistic have.
Likewise cruise missiles like Brahmos/Oniks weigh 3 times as much and carry lots of fuel to sustain leveled supersonic flight all the way.
CM 400 don't have that luxury. Its too light and carries little fuel. Cannot sustain leveled flight as atmospheric drag will eat up all the range .
Unless I am wrong in my thinking that 100km minimum range is due to mandatory quasi ballistic path, and its the range while level flying?.
But the question is, will a JF-17 want to come to within 100km of a S-400 ?

However for 240km maximum range it "Must" rise the 60km Altitude to comply with maximum range expectations, while carrying that much weight of the warhead and reaching those high mach numbers. Otherwise it doesn't carry enough fuel to accomplish those requirements.

That's why AVIC specified launch envelope for JF-17 firing CM-400 is , while flying at Mach 0.7 and M0.9 at an elevation between 26,200ft and 39,400ft.
At this altitude, the line of sight is 300km +.
Meaning the JF-17 even before firing the missile will be visible and tracked by S-400 radars.

So, what i think is ( and I can be wrong) that the JF-17 will fly at lower altitude until about 200km from target, rise on full afterburner to the required launch altitude. Fire the missile, and dive down back to safety, hiding behind the earths curvature, from S-400 radars .
While S-400 units will immediately detect and track the launch, and get busy defending. Another salvo of conventional Raad or Babur will fly below the radar, to the target and do the actual job.

But, JF-17 may be under the top-notch EW envelope specially geared to blind S-400 radars. Don't know about others, but the Turkish KORAL EW and HAVA-SOJ "libraries" have especial routines to cater for such AD radars....

You may have your metaphors mixed up. Goliath was Philistine and David was Jewish.

As per Islam, all Prophets, including David, Moses, Jesus etc., are Muslims.....

 

[Mentee]

You may have your metaphors mixed up. Goliath was Philistine and David was Jewish.

While both Arabs and Jews are semite .

 

[Cookie Monster]

I don't know and I don't care what politicians or media persons say on both sides.
U said something illogical and I corrected you. Always reply only if u have something useful to add.
Ofcourse if there's some scientist saying something do share.

First grasp the concept of logic and comprehend fully what's being said before trying to act smart.

Ppl here are making fun of this(defense minister) moron's statement(about the S400 would force PAF to operate out of Afghanistan)...
...then u barge in pointing out the "flaw"...with an example saying just bcuz India has anti tank missiles, Pak should sell its tanks?
...that only highlights the ridiculousness of ur defense minister's statement.

So the illogical statement u seem to be correcting...is that of ur own defense minister's...
...not the statement that member was making ..he was in fact making fun of that same illogical statement.

Bravo for that self goal...and in the process demonstrating ur lack of comprehension skills.

 

[NAVDEEP DHALIWAL]

First grasp the concept of logic and comprehend fully what's being said before trying to act smart.

Ppl here are making fun of this(defense minister) moron's statement(about the S400 would force PAF to operate out of Afghanistan)...
...then u barge in pointing out the "flaw"...with an example saying just bcuz India has anti tank missiles, Pak should sell its tanks?
...that only highlights the ridiculousness of ur defense minister's statement.

So the illogical statement u seem to be correcting...is that of ur own defense minister's...
...not the statement that member was making ..he was in fact making fun of that same illogical statement.

Bravo for that self goal...and in the process demonstrating ur lack of comprehension skills.

I was replying to this comment,

nomi007 said:
Targeting S-400 is not a big deal, Ukrainians destroyed them with very simple cardboard design uavs

But u had quoted his post so I hit reply on urs.
But mistake was mine I don't reply in trolling threads, I just saw the last reply and thought some serious discussion going on lol

 

[TheSolution]

These Twitter accounts in my opinion are not good references, no offence to them but they fill in a lot of unknown gaps with entirely speculative claims with nothing to support it, low quality information