Solving Pakistan Navy's Ship Problem

[Penguin]

But Rashid Bhai didn't the Japanese did exactly that in WW2 especially at Pearl Harbor where midget submarines were used to devastating effect along with an air-raid ?

Actually, no. Of five minisubs launched, only 2 apparently managed to launch (40%), of which only 1 with succes (20%). Two of five launched were sunk by warship and a further two sunk by other causes. The fifth was apparently scuttled. Resulting in 100% loss rate (i.e. a suicide mission)

Mini-sub Number 1 was sunk by ‘USS Ward’ and did not fire either of its two torpedoes.
Mini-sub Number 2 got into Pearl Harbor and fired its two torpedoes. Both missed their targets, and Number 2 was then sunk by American warships.
Mini-sub Number 3 ran aground and did not fire either of its two torpedoes.
Mini-sub Number 4 was found in 1960 with both its torpedoes still on board.
Number 5 remained a mystery untill quite recently and apparently did fire and did hit..

Japanese Navy Ship Types--Type A, B & C Midget Submarines
Pearl Harbor and Midget Subs
Pearl Harbor mini-submarine mystery solved? - Los Angeles Times

Couldn't strategically located midget submarines near our shore replicate some of that ? In that a Frigate or even a Destroyer let alone some of the smaller ships would think twice about traversing those waters ? If that were possible - We may not be able to assemble a fleet of 10 Submarines but surely the costs wouldn't be as prohibitive if we assemble around 10-20 midget submarines simply for defensive purposes & they're situated close to the shore !

Essentially you are suggesting to use a midget in the role of 'smart mine': why not go for unmanned underwater vehicles? Or fixed underwater launch facilities, trigerred either remotely or by some form of 'trip wire' (why waste manpower)

 

[Armstrong]

Actually, no. Of five minisubs launched, only 2 apparently managed to launch (40%), of which only 1 with succes (20%). Two of five launched were sunk by warship and a further two sunk by other causes. The fifth was apparently scuttled. Resulting in 100% loss rate (i.e. a suicide mission)

Mini-sub Number 1 was sunk by ‘USS Ward’ and did not fire either of its two torpedoes.
Mini-sub Number 2 got into Pearl Harbor and fired its two torpedoes. Both missed their targets, and Number 2 was then sunk by American warships.
Mini-sub Number 3 ran aground and did not fire either of its two torpedoes.
Mini-sub Number 4 was found in 1960 with both its torpedoes still on board.
Number 5 remained a mystery untill quite recently and apparently did fire and did hit..

Japanese Navy Ship Types--Type A, B & C Midget Submarines
Pearl Harbor and Midget Subs
Pearl Harbor mini-submarine mystery solved? - Los Angeles Times

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/07/science/la-sci-minisub7-2009dec07

Thanks !

Though I suppose today's midgets would probably be considerably more superior than their counterparts from yesteryears !

Essentially you are suggesting to use a midget in the role of 'smart mine': why not go for unmanned underwater vehicles? Or fixed underwater launch facilities, trigerred either remotely or by some form of 'trip wire' (why waste manpower)

Wouldn't the costs of that be prohibitively high ?

 

[That Guy]

we already have a ship yard! and research base.

Not that simple, having assets and being able to use those assets are two completely different things. If you have a car, but can't afford gas, then your car is next to useless.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Not that simple, having assets and being able to use those assets are two completely different things. If you have a car, but can't afford gas, then your car is next to useless.

sir best way is to talk abt solutions when we have identified the problem. So in yr case whats yr personal opinion?

 

[That Guy]

sir best way is to talk abt solutions when we have identified the problem. So in yr case whats yr personal opinion?

Don't do anything yet, that's my personal opinion. Maintain what you do have until you've saved enough cash to actually make a difference. Neither developing, nor buying second hand ships is within Pakistan's financial interest right now. Those don't just have short term costs, they have long term costs, because operating them takes cash away from other much needed projects. Increasing the military budget to GDP ration is not in Pakistani interest. Pakistan barely has enough money to fund the JF-17 project, what makes people think that Pakistan can afford to R&D a naval vessel that costs many times more than a fighter jet.

 

[araz]

Well the majority of people here are less than thirty I'd guess. Lot of preteens around as well. Of course, I wouldn't talk that way to my elders. My apologies if a mistake has been made.

A lot of us have children reaching mid twenties so you are a young man. Secondly on the forum seniors are seniors because they have spent time and made an effort to get there. Penguin is respected because of his knowledge on naval matters. So read well before you respond.
Lastly its boring having to tell people off so lets get on with debating with respect of another point of view.Argue as much as you like but dont let go of respect for your fellow man/ woman
Araz

 

[araz]

To phir kya faidfa hua A90s banany ka? Agr humny Hull jaisy basic cheez b ready made ly?

Umair
Pakistan is way behind in the shipping industry as we dont have the means to set up specialized steel plants. As far as I know there was only one plant which closed down after take over by Bhutto following nationalisation. It was subsequently revived by the army and started functioning. However we not only cannot produce enough steel but also do not have the research setup to research and find out different alloys and determine their function. In the 90s I was told that a specialized steel plant could easily set you back a couple of billion dollars. So now the cost must be even higher. Then there is the cost of research.
Araz

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Umair
Pakistan is way behind in the shipping industry as we dont have the means to set up specialized steel plants. As far as I know there was only one plant which closed down after take over by Bhutto following nationalisation. It was subsequently revived by the army and started functioning. However we not only cannot produce enough steel but also do not have the research setup to research and find out different alloys and determine their function. In the 90s I was told that a specialized steel plant could easily set you back a couple of billion dollars. So now the cost must be even higher. Then there is the cost of research.
Araz

Well the first thing a wise person does after identifying a problem is to find its solutions and workhard make the solution a reality. If not that then simply we are in the mercy of the enemy. I guess if we dont have facilities then the best thing is to find ways to build them and quickly start producing our stuff. Its a matter of National Security and must be seen in such way.

If not today then tomorrow we will eventually be forced to make our our stuff so why not do something abt it?

 

[araz]

then simply we are in the mercy of the enemy. I guess if we dont have facilities then the best thing is to find ways to build them and quickly start producing our stuff. Its a matter of National Security and must be seen in such way.

No. The problem is not as simple as that. There needs to be a concerted effort to start small and develop gradually.There needs to be a planned development of dual use technology with simultaneous use of facilities for commercial ventures the profits from which need to be channelled into developing infrastructure , facilities and R&D base. All this requires vision, time, concerted effort,money and honesty all of which we lack to a lesser or greater extent. We need private enterprise to step in and collabòrate with the government and establish some of the ancillary facilities.
The list goes on and on........!!!!!
Araz

 

[Umair Nawaz]

No. The problem is not as simple as that. There needs to be a concerted effort to start small and develop gradually.There needs to be a planned development of dual use technology with simultaneous use of facilities for commercial ventures the profits from which need to be channelled into developing infrastructure , facilities and R&D base. All this requires vision, time, concerted effort,money and honesty all of which we lack to a lesser or greater extent. We need private enterprise to step in and collabòrate with the government and establish some of the ancillary facilities.
The list goes on and on........!!!!!
Araz

If not today then tomorrow we will eventually be forced to make our own stuff. No matter how much of a hardwork in the mentioned areas needs to be done we need to start from somewhere. An intense lobbying in private sector can be a good start.

 

[acetophenol]

My man India is a big country with different requirements.



I'd like to add Midget submarines are good at evading sonar but poor endurance and life support systems messes everything up for them.

I agree that India has different requirements than Pakistan,but Corvettes are a good option for Pakistan too. They are 'pocket destroyers'.
They are
1.Small
2. Fast
3.Flexible
-A typical corvette has 4 or more anti-ship missiles
-Light heli
-Has range and speed

 

[araz]

If not today then tomorrow we will eventually be forced to make our our stuff. No matter how much of a hardwork in the mentioned areas needs to be done we need to start from somewhere. An intense lobbying in private sector can be a good start.

You need to recognize the ground realities.You are asking people to setup multibillion dollar industries without assuring them of a seller for their works. Even if you could, who will install such a plant in pakistan which is beset with violence, shortage of quality raw materials, lack of energy infrastructure,lack of trained manpower to name a few problems. The problem is not insurmountable but we need peace and assured energy supplies for the economy to start growing first before we discuss our defence needs. At the moment we are like a house which the robbers come to loot and take pity on our condition and leave some money behind for us.As I mentioned we need vision and basic honesty at the top for infrastructure assessment and rapid buildup.
Araz

 

[Basel]

What can Russia offer Pakistan as there is news today that they have lifted arms embargo on Pakistan??

Russia lifts arms embargo to Pakistan: report - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
.
Russia Lifts Embargo on Weapons Sales to Pakistan | Business | The Moscow Times

@Penguin can you put some light on it?

 

[474474]

A lot of us have children reaching mid twenties so you are a young man. Secondly on the forum seniors are seniors because they have spent time and made an effort to get there. Penguin is respected because of his knowledge on naval matters. So read well before you respond.
Lastly its boring having to tell people off so lets get on with debating with respect of another point of view.Argue as much as you like but dont let go of respect for your fellow man/ woman
Araz

I know most of the old members, I've been here for 5 years I'd guess. Changed accounts a few times. Don't like the new forum, prefer vbulletin. That's all.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

You need to recognize the ground realities.You are asking people to setup multibillion dollar industries without assuring them of a seller for their works. Even if you could, who will install such a plant in pakistan which is beset with violence, shortage of quality raw materials, lack of energy infrastructure,lack of trained manpower to name a few problems. The problem is not insurmountable but we need peace and assured energy supplies for the economy to start growing first before we discuss our defence needs. At the moment we are like a house which the robbers come to loot and take pity on our condition and leave some money behind for us.As I mentioned we need vision and basic honesty at the top for infrastructure assessment and rapid buildup.
Araz

Very well indeed, but does it really mean anything or is it just a load of words stuck together to pacify people who are looking for such words ie solutions?

Now if there is a will there is a way.........I will appreciate if u start talking abt the solutions now. And frankly im not interested in other talk. If u have solutions then bring them on.