Solving Pakistan Navy's Ship Problem

[Rashid Mahmood]

If PN adds 4 more subs to the existing 3 X 90Bs, we will have 7 AIP subs, and a blockade will not be possible.
PN should pursue more Frigates from China, because we will not get any from anywhere else.

 

[Kompromat]

If PN adds 4 more subs to the existing 3 X 90Bs, we will have 7 AIP subs, and a blockade will not be possible.
PN should pursue more Frigates from China, because we will not get any from anywhere else.

PN should seriously look at this VLS option.


High Performance Frigate will be fitted with 32 VLS cells at the stern, a H/PJ-26 76.2mm naval gun, two H/PJ-13 30mm Gatling Close-In Weapons System (CIWS), FL-3000N missile Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) on top of the helicopter hangar and 8x anti-ship missiles.

 

[F.O.X]

I am not the navy expert , but here is my thought .

Drop everything , start from scratch , we have the capability to build both Ships & Subs , lets start improving that , it may take 10-20 years , but at least we will have a base to stand on , Focus more on subs then on Frigates or destroyers , build a reliable Air defence system for our coastal borders , so PN does not always have to rely on PAF .

For all this to happen we need an investment budget of around $5-6bn (for 5 years , $1bn per year), just for the Navy .

 

[Luftwaffe]

If PN adds 4 more subs to the existing 3 X 90Bs, we will have 7 AIP subs, and a blockade will not be possible.
PN should pursue more Frigates from China, because we will not get any from anywhere else.

Could you tell us why PN did not pursue more A-90B submarines, is it because of zardari fiasco Karachi bus bombing that killed french engineer [which my personal thoughts are across the border neighbors did it].

 

[Armstrong]

If PN adds 4 more subs to the existing 3 X 90Bs, we will have 7 AIP subs, and a blockade will not be possible.
PN should pursue more Frigates from China, because we will not get any from anywhere else.

Rashid Bhai do we have some sort of a Naval equivalent to PAC Kamra or HIT Taxila ?

In that maybe designing new ships would be very much capital intensive but surely we could've come up with a watered down version of the Genesis system that the Turks came up with ?

Maybe some other forms of automation ? Something !

 

[Penguin]

cmon now, I thought you would design a ship; don't disappoint us.

I've put forward an F22P development on several occasions but folks here don't like it, they insist on Type054A or at the very least that 3700 ton 'high performance rigate' design... as if either is a) affordable and b) a game changer.

Here an F22P development being built for Algeria, called C28A. It features a replacement of the stack/exhaust uptake with waterline exhausting, freeing up space for a different radar set, as well as a Thales Smart S Mk2 radar and CMS. Just putting in Sylver A35 launcher with quadpacked VT1 gives better self-defence coverage relative to F22P, without a need to change much in terms of e.g. missile director. Using Sylver A43 with quadpacked CAMM or equivalent length Mk41 Self defence launcher with quadpacked ESSM would be even better. CAMM would have my vote as it doesn't rely on radar directors or illuminators for missile guidance, only on a 2D or 3D main radar for targeting.

VT1 - Thales
Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles

Picture that with 32 CAMM with 25km missile range or an AAAW version with Mk41 and 32x 50km ESSM in place of HQ7/FM-90. One could also maintain the HQ7/FM90 but replace the 2 gatlings in the rear with 2 FL3000 and add two smaller chinese single 25 or 30mm remote control mounts. If using the CIWS mount of the 054A (H/PJ12) - which has integral radar and elop director - you might put one of those in the structure atop the hangar, in place of the Type 347G radar (since this is now no longer required)

 

[l'ingénieur]

Domestic products also = jobs (lots of it)

 

[Penguin]

seriously... go back to ice age..or antartica..

Fine with me.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pakistan Ship yard was capable of making ships that are 1/3 Size of aircraft carriers back in 70's however now we can't manufacture even 50% of that


Well most Pakistainis today might say we can only build small ships even on Defence forum I assume they will say that
example

However Pakistan has capacity to construct "MASSIVE" ships on its own

Its not matter of if we can build or not its just there has been no interest

a) No Interest in Propulsion systems for these ships
b) No appropriate company investment for weapons for ship etc

There is general lack of planning in this area


Same Large Ships constructed by Pakistan "Made in Pakistan"
1974

1967

Cargo Ship build for China by Pakistan

Magnificent Ship "Islamabad"

So as you can see we can "Build" Massive big ships , we just have not focused enough energy on that area otherwise we would have had at least 4 , helicopter carriers in our fleet if we were serious about it


If you ask me we could easily convert these massive ships into Military/Naval capacity
We have every thing we need


a) Shipyard
b) Expertise to build large ships
c) Weapons from China to install Missiles
d) We could have 5 Helicopter decks


It is not that hard to go from Massive designs to military applications

 

[Sankpal]

First we need 24 hours electricity, than two line a bullet train, schools, Universitys, its called basic infrastructure for 200 Million People.

View attachment 33151

India his Navy can wait, We have NUkes and missilles, they will never attack us !

If you not able to do anything thing than your ans is only one. Nuke jaise ki halwa hai...

Means we will not try make own anything because we have Nuke.............

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Rashid Bhai do we have some sort of a Naval equivalent to PAC Kamra or HIT Taxila ?

In that maybe designing new ships would be very much capital intensive but surely we could've come up with a watered down version of the Genesis system that the Turks came up with ?

Maybe some other forms of automation ? Something !

Not exactly like PAC or HIT, but PN does have it's own ship construction engineers, and a dedicated department for all modernisations. All Gearing's, Type 21's were modernised by PN.
Aslat , Hamza, Larkana, Jalalat and Jurrat was constructed here.

Certainly PN is capable of modernizing OHPs, the only problem is money.
There is no shortage of expertise.

 

[GR!FF!N]

to scale up the Azmat class to 1000 tons and locally manufacture 10-20 such boats,

I've a question.what kind of "Air Defence" you're expecting an enlarged FAC could provide,retaining enough offensive and defensive capability??limited ASW can be understood,but a decent Air Defence??to house HQ-9 type air defence in VLS module,I think it needs more than a 1000 Ton vessel.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Could you tell us why did PN did not pursue more A-90B submarines, is it because of zardari fiasco Karachi bus bombing that killed french engineer [which my personal thoughts are across the border neighbors did it].

2 main reasons:

1. US pressure.
2. Zardari Corruption scandal

And yes your right about the bombing killing French engineers. It almost halted the 90B program.
And the neighbours also promised the French that they would buy 6 scorpene subs if they don't allow PN any more 90Bs.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Rashid Bhai do we have some sort of a Naval equivalent to PAC Kamra or HIT Taxila ?

In that maybe designing new ships would be very much capital intensive but surely we could've come up with a watered down version of the Genesis system that the Turks came up with ?

Maybe some other forms of automation ? Something !

karachi shipyard.

2 main reasons:

1. US pressure.
2. Zardari Corruption scandal

And yes your right about the bombing killing French engineers. It almost halted the 90B program.
And the neighbours also promised the French that they would buy 6 scorpene subs if they don't allow PN any more 90Bs.

Sir we got the technology so why not start building our own?

 

[Penguin]

PN should seriously look at this VLS option.

High Performance Frigate will be fitted with 32 VLS cells at the stern, a H/PJ-26 76.2mm naval gun, two H/PJ-13 30mm Gatling Close-In Weapons System (CIWS), FL-3000N missile Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) on top of the helicopter hangar and 8x anti-ship missiles.

I'm not particularly thrilled by the use of an AK630 variant, which - judging from their location and firing arcs, may have been included primarily as a cannon against small boats and other surface targets: FL-3000N is the CIWS.

HQ-16 is reportedly based on the Russian naval 9K37M1-2 system 'Shtil' (SA-N-12). Shtil has a range of 2.5–32 km against an air target such as an aircraft but against anti-ship missiles it is up to 12 km. HQ-16A is quoted as having a slightly longer range of 40 km but still 12km against cruise missiles HQ-16B probably has double the range of Shtil.

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In all, the missile effective range of nval VL HQ-16 against cruise missiles is pretty much the same as that of FM-90.... So, I would argue, all that this ship adds, relative to a C-28A armed with VL quadpacked VT1 is the ability to engage aircraft at longer ranges. When you consider the range of modern air launched antiship missiles, I don't think that even HQ-16 offers a huge advantage....

CPMIEC HQ-7/FM-80/FM-90 / CSA-4/CSA-5 Sino-Crotale SelfPropelled Air Defence System