Solving Pakistan Navy's Ship Problem

[Kompromat]

@Penguin

DK-10 is a SAM based on SD-10A BVRAAM with an added booster motor and TVC. Its quoted range is 50km with VLS work in progress. Would that be a viable option?

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin

DK-10 is a SAM based on SD-10A BVRAAM with an added booster motor and TVC. Its quoted range is 50km with VLS work in progress. Would that be a viable option?

Yes, provided it can be at least duo-packed into an 8-cell vls. I'm not sure it would be possible to shoehorn more than 2 of the Chinese 8-cell launchers into the F22P/C28A design. Quadpacked like ESSM, it would be a very viable option esp if it has active (terminal) radar guidance (which eliminates the need for radar illuminators or directors).

China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation - Air-to-Air Missile

 

[Penguin]

I've a question.what kind of "Air Defence" you're expecting an enlarged FAC could provide,retaining enough offensive and defensive capability??limited ASW can be understood,but a decent Air Defence??to house HQ-9 type air defence in VLS module,I think it needs more than a 1000 Ton vessel.

For HQ16 even you would need not just be able to house a sufficient number of VL cells. You also would need associated search/track radars and fire control radars (target illuminators). You need the search/track radar irrespective of the the number of vl cells / missiles carried. You can vary the number of illuminators with the number of vl cells / missiles carried (with a minimum of 1 illuminator and 1 VLU with 8 missiles). The smaller you hull, the less room you have left for vlus/missiles and illuminators, while still needing to invest in the search/track radar. Hence, a larger ship may be more cost-effective. This is the reason the US abandoned the 16 round Mk 22 single rail missile launcher (Brooke class) in favor of the 40 round Mk13 missile launcher (Perry class).

United Arab Emirates Navy's Baynunah Class Multi-Role Guided Missile Corvettes is 71.3m long, has displacement of 915 tons, hastop speed of over 30, range 2,400nm at 15kt and endurance is 14 days. It carries eight MBDA 180 km range MM40 block 3 Exocet antiship cruise missiles and has four MK56 vertical launch cells for duo-packed RIM-162 ESSM (total 8 missiles). It is further armed with a single OTO Melara 76 mm/62 caliber naval gun and two Rheinmetall MLG-27 mm guns. Finally it is armed with a MK49 mod3 21-cell RAM launcher for RAM block 1A.

UAE Baynunah Class Multi-Role Guided Missile Corvettes | Global Military Review

Baynunah class Corvette Al Hesen Al Dhafra Mezyad UAE Navy United Arab Emirates ADSB Abu Dhabi Ship Building CMN Constructions Mécaniques de Normandie datasheet pictures photos video specifications

Please distinguish 'air self-defence' and 'area air defence'. The former is intended to provide only/mainly self defence AAW while the latter is intended to give protection to other ships in the task force.

Considering the range of AShM these days, for area air defence, you need a surface to air missile with > 100km (and preferably >200). All the rest is 'air self defence' as far a big players are concerned.

Having said that, in smaller navies - where e.g. most ships are are at best FAC's at best equipped with RAM and 76mm oto - a small frigate with 32 ESSM might well fullfill and AAAW function, even if by the above definition it is not a true AAAW ship in the eyes of larger navies.

 

[acetophenol]

Get and Make More corvettes (500 tons-1500 ton). They are the real backbone of Indian Navy,and will certainly work for Pakistan too,IMO.

 

[GR!FF!N]

@Penguin

I though he was talking about "Air Defense Ship" having long range SAM,as he mentioned about Brahmos and Su-30,and India uses group of long ranged ASCM.thats why I mentioned HQ-9.what is the chinese equivalent of RIM-116 and RIM-162??

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin

I though he was talking about "Air Defense Ship" having long range SAM,as he mentioned about Brahmos and Su-30,and India uses group of long ranged ASCM.thats why I mentioned HQ-9.what is the chinese equivalent of RIM-116 and RIM-162??

RAM and ESSM > FL3000N and SD-10 or hq16

 

[GR!FF!N]

RAM and ESSM > FL3000N and SD-10 or hq9

HQ-9 has range around 200 Km,while RAM has only 9 km while ESSM has some 50km range.but ESSM both are faster probably.

 

[Basel]

Could you tell us why PN did not pursue more A-90B submarines, is it because of zardari fiasco Karachi bus bombing that killed french engineer [which my personal thoughts are across the border neighbors did it].

I m also surprised that PN did not go for more 90Bs as they were in need to replace old ones, PN at least could have gone for 2 more with more upgrades to replace 70s.

@Penguin you may be right about HQ16's capability of engaging incoming missiles as some PN official told me that FM-90 is good and HQ16 is not as good as you think its similar to previous ones in some regards.

 

[niaz]

I am not the navy expert , but here is my thought .

Drop everything , start from scratch , we have the capability to build both Ships & Subs , lets start improving that , it may take 10-20 years , but at least we will have a base to stand on , Focus more on subs then on Frigates or destroyers , build a reliable Air defence system for our coastal borders , so PN does not always have to rely on PAF .

For all this to happen we need an investment budget of around $5-6bn (for 5 years , $1bn per year), just for the Navy .

We are not an Island nation therefore it would be virtually impossible to completely cut-off Pakistan from the outside world. Thus the rulers do not fully understand why a strong Navy is needed or what is required to have a strong Navy.

Besides, all of our military heroes such as Salahuddin, Taimur, Babur, Ghaznavi, Ghauri, Mehmet-II the conquerer of Constantinople relied primarily on their army. Even the Air force is in effect an extension of the army. What started with the use of hot air balloons, primarily for the purpose of gathering info about enemies troop deployment, in 1794 during the battle of Fleurus; turned into bombing from air; during WWI with fighter deployed to protect the bombers.

Navy is also the most expensive arm of the services. Cost of the building and maintaining a single modern vessel could possibly equip the entire army of a small nation. For example a modern tank such as M-1 Abrams, Leopord-2 or Soviet T-95 cost about $4 to 6-million each. BAE Systems charged Norway & Sweden $200 million for 48 Archer self-propelled 155 systems including ammunition i.e. at unit cost of $4.1-million.

A state of the art 4th generation fighter cost $60 -70 million each with JF-17 costing only $20 -25 million. On the other hand a modern warship such as British Type 26 frigate costs about $600-million. Even a Chinese frigates cost about $200-million each. Besides it is a lot more expensive to maintain & operate a naval ship than an air craft or a tank. You can see that $1-billion per year spent on Army or Air force would get you a lot more bang for your buck. Therefore in cash strapped nation such as Pakistan, when military planners look at resource allocation; Navy always comes last.

This is not denying the importance of a credible naval deterrence; however it is unlikely that Pakistan would have sufficient funds to allocate $1-billion per year for buying naval hardware anytime in the foreseeable future. Pak Navy therefore has to make up the numbers with surplus vessels from the US or Britain.

 

[Armstrong]

We are not an Island nation therefore it would be virtually impossible to completely cut-off Pakistan from the outside world. Thus the rulers do not fully understand why a strong Navy is needed or what is required to have a strong Navy.

Besides, all of our military heroes such as Salahuddin, Taimur, Babur, Ghaznavi, Ghauri, Mehmet-II the conquerer of Constantinople relied primarily on their army. Even the Air force is in effect an extension of the army. What started with the use of hot air balloons, primarily for the purpose of gathering info about enemies troop deployment in 1794 during the battle of Fleurus; turned into bombing from air; during WWI with fighter deployed to protect the bombers.

Navy is also the most expensive arm of the services. Cost of the building and maintaining a single modern vessel could possibly equip the entire army of a small nation. For example a modern tank such as M-1 Abrams, Leopord-2 or Soviet T-95 cost about $4 to 6-million each. BAE Systems charged Norway & Sweden $200 million for 48 Archer self-propelled 155 systems including ammunition i.e. at unit cost of $4.1-million.

A state of the art 4th generation fighter cost $60 -70 million each with JF-17 costing only $20 -25 million. On the other hand a modern warship such as British Type 26 frigate costs about $600-million. Even a Chinese frigates cost about $200-million each. Besides it is a lot more expensive to maintain & operate a naval ship than an air craft or a tank. You can see that $1-billion per year spent on Army or Air force or would get a lot more bang for your buck. Therefore in cash strapped nation such as Pakistan, when military planners look at resource allocation; Navy always comes last.

This is not denying the importance of a credible naval deterrence; however it is unlikely that Pakistan would have sufficient funds to allocate $1-billion per year for buying naval hardware anytime in the foreseeable future. Pak Navy therefore has to make up the numbers with surplus vessels from the US or Britain.

Niaz Bhai what would you say about the use of midget submarines ? In that they may not have the endurance nor would they be able to carry a whole lot of ammunition but were they to be mass-produced (say the PN having 50 of these) with each of them carrying 1-2 torpedoes needed to take out or severely cripple a Frigate sized ship - Wouldn't we have a credible deterrence in terms of keeping the Indian Navy far....far away from our coast ?

@Rashid Mahmood - What are your thoughts, sir ?

 

[araz]

Hey dick-for-brains, do kisses work against blockades?

Young man.
On this forum you respect posters especially your seniors. You may not agree with them but name calling is unwarranted. Pleaze correct your post and apologize to penguin
Araz

 

[Mugwop]

Get and Make More corvettes (500 tons-1500 ton). They are the real backbone of Indian Navy,and will certainly work for Pakistan too,IMO.

My man India is a big country with different requirements.

Niaz Bhai what would you say about the use of midget submarines ? In that they may not have the endurance nor would they be able to carry a whole lot of ammunition but were they to be mass-produced (say the PN having 50 of these) with each of them carrying 1-2 torpedoes needed to take out or severely cripple a Frigate sized ship - Wouldn't we have a credible deterrence in terms of keeping the Indian Navy far....far away from our coast ?

@Rashid Mahmood - What are your thoughts, sir ?

I'd like to add Midget submarines are good at evading sonar but poor endurance and life support systems messes everything up for them.

 

[Slayer786]

domestic project will be cheaper then buying ready made foreign weapons. Today for tomorrow we will have to make our stuff so why not today?

Hmmm! But what about the commission? Who is going to pay the ministers if manufactured locally?

 

[OrionHunter]

Why not take the trouble to make yr own ships like indians. Why always bank on China and America for weapons?

Your over dependence on Chinese and American equipment, which you have taken for granted, has killed off your indigenous industry. But its never too late to start.

 

[F.O.X]

This is not denying the importance of a credible naval deterrence; however it is unlikely that Pakistan would have sufficient funds to allocate $1-billion per year for buying naval hardware anytime in the foreseeable future. Pak Navy therefore has to make up the numbers with surplus vessels from the US or Britain.

Not for buying , but for Research & Development , so after 10 years we could stand on our own feet & dont have to look around for buying weapons that we should already have be producing .