Şimşir (Shamshir)

[bsruzm]

Şimşir is a type of sabre with a curve that is considered radical for a sword.
The name is derived from Persian Shamshir which means "sword" (in general).

Originally Persian swords were straight and double edged, just as the Indian khanda. The curved scimitar blades were Central Asian in origin. The earliest evidence of curved swords, or scimitars, is from the 9th century, when these weapons were used by soldiers in the Khurasan region of Central Asia. The sword now called a "shamshir" was introduced to Iran by the Turkic Seljuk Khanate in the 12th century and was later popularized in Persia by the early 16th century, and had "relatives" in Turkey (Kılıç, the Kilij), the Mughal Empire (the talwar), and the adjoining Arabian world (the saif) and (the sam-saam).

Although the name has been associated by popular etymology with the city of Shamshir (which in turn means "curved like the lion's claw" in Persian) the word has been used to mean "sword" since ancient times, as attested by Middle Persian shamshir and the Ancient Greek sampsēra (glossed as "foreign sword").

These swords are still in use in Middle East, Central Asia, India, some part's of China and truly originated from Turko-Mongol saber.

Turko-Mongol saber:

Turkish sword (the Kilij):

Persian Shamshir:

Arabian Saif:

Pakistani-Indian the Talwar:

____________
Here is a very clear example of difference between a Turko-Mongol influenced-originated and a traditional sword.

This is the sword of Uthman ibn Affan and Osman Bey (Osman I)

Sword of Osman was an important sword of state used during the coronation ceremony of the sultans.
The practice started when Osman was girt with the sword of Islam by his mentor and father-in-law Sheik Edebali. It is unknown how 'Sheikh Edebali' got that sword.
In some documents, It's mentioned as It was first a gift of Ayyubids to Sultanate of Rum (Seljuks) and then to Osman Bey.
Unlike what many people think of 'Sword of Osman', shape of the sword features an Arabic design of early Islamic period rather than a Turko-Mongol design as It was originally the sword of Uthman ibn Affan PBUH.

It also features tamga of a Turkic clan, Kayi.

____

I prefer Kilij and here is why:
wwwyoutubecom/watch?v=ikVMXhcjbYc

 

[rmi5]

@bsruzm
A few points:
1. Shamshir is the name used for swords with longer lengths not all swords.
2. Horse riders preferred the curved swords since they are easier and quicker to be taken out of their sheath, while some foot-soldiers preferred the straight swords since they are easier to handle in a fight.
3. By better, what do you mean? There are two important points, sharpness and durability. As a rule of thumb, if you increase the carbon share in your steel, the sword becomes sharper, but it can be easier broken as well; hence, you would have a trade-off here.
4. if you are interested in swords, I suggest you to take a look at Samurai swords.

 

[bsruzm]

@bsruzm
A few points:
1. Shamshir is the name used for swords with longer lengths not all swords.
3. By better, what do you mean?
4. if you are interested in swords, I suggest you to take a look at Samurai swords.

I wanted to name this thread 'Shamshir' for that name was often used also by us 'the Turks' in the past.
I don't think I said 'by better'? But what do you prefer to have or use, so I don't mean anything.
Thank you for your suggest but I am not interested in Samurai swords.

 

[rmi5]

I wanted to name this thread 'Shamshir' for that name was often used also by us 'the Turks' in the past.
I don't think I said 'by better'? But what do you prefer to have or use, so I don't mean anything.
Thank you for your suggest but I am not interested in Samurai swords.

My opinion: Historically, indian swords were famous for their good built quality, but if I was horse-riding soldier, I would have chosen more curved versions like turko-Mongol soldiers.

 

[Timur]

turkish kilic the type used by vlad the impaler.. they did a replica and tried how good it is

just like rmi said..

my additions are that persians and arabs copied the turkish kilij they are different without the tip of the sword wich makes the turkish original sword better for hacking

the turkish sword is perfect for horse riding mongol and turkish swords are quite the same..
but our sowrds were made from the finest damascus steel

indian swords were famous for their good built quality

maybe because wootz steel is originated from india

 

[-SINAN-]

Hımm, i prefer the sword of the conqueror.

Also, for the Ottoman Swords. The Ottoman sword - a cut and slash weapon

 

[Saiful Islam]

Shamsur/ShamsirShamsud is also a very common name for Bengalis.

 

[Timur]

one thing to my video link.. as you see he did it with one hand most ppl like to compare swords even two handed swords with one handed.. or where someone is using his whole body and strenght while moving forward to cut through .. but this video shows that turkish kilic is a masterpiece of curved swords

look at the katana video and how they use this sword to cut

or a chinese one

Hımm, i prefer the sword of the conqueror.

yes that is the best looking sword ever

 

[jamahir]

These swords are still in use in Middle East, Central Asia, India, some part's of China and truly originated from Turko-Mongol saber.
View attachment 220753

he cuts quite a figure.

Turko-Mongol saber:
View attachment 220745

that's a beautiful sword... looks futuristic and of the past at the same time... and practical.

Hımm, i prefer the sword of the conqueror.

how tall should the person be to use it??

 

[-SINAN-]

how tall should the person be to use it??

Hımm, not sure.

Sword's legth is 1.25m.

 

[jamahir]

Hımm, not sure.

Sword's legth is 1.25m.

that's a bit more than four feet... seems too long and from the picture it looks not very practical for a battlefield as it is more or less straight... of course, i don't have any experience with swords.

the second picture on the thread ( curved and wavy turko-mongol sword ) on the other hand seems easy on the arms.

by the way, why did you call the long sword as "sword of the conqueror"??

 

[-SINAN-]

by the way, why did you call the long sword as "sword of the conqueror"??

Because it's the "sword of the conqueror"

Mehmed the Conqueror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bsruzm]

he cuts quite a figure.

It's a picture from a movie 'Mongol: The Rise of Genghis Khan' an after battle scene.

that's a beautiful sword... looks futuristic and of the past at the same time... and practical.

It's quite like the movie one, I couldn't make a detailed search on Turko-Mongol saber

It should be more like this:

or that:

_____
Additionally:
''During the Yuan Dynasty (1279 AD to 1368 AD), the Turko-Mongol sabre was introduced as the main weapon for both civilians and soldiers. This shape became the foundation for the Liuyedao (Willow Leaf Sword) and the Yanmaodao (Goosequill Sword) of the later dynasties. Finally, in the late Qing Dynasty (1644 AD to 1911 AD), the familiar Niuweidao or Oxtail Sword was developed. A single-handed, single-edged sabre with a heavy blade with a flaring tip, it was never issued to the military and was solely a civilian weapon for self-defence.''

 

[jamahir]

It's a picture from a movie 'Mongol: The Rise of Genghis Khan' an after battle scene.

thanks for that... i searched for it now, found it on dailymotion and have bookmarked.

i would not have known if you hadn't told me.

It's quite like the movie one, I couldn't make a detailed search on Turko-Mongol saber

It should be more like this:
View attachment 220813

or that:
View attachment 220814

oh, so the film took cinematic liberty... like the below sword from the 2001 film, "planet of the apes"...

_____
Additionally:
''During the Yuan Dynasty (1279 AD to 1368 AD), the Turko-Mongol sabre was introduced as the main weapon for both civilians and soldiers. This shape became the foundation for the Liuyedao (Willow Leaf Sword) and the Yanmaodao (Goosequill Sword) of the later dynasties. Finally, in the late Qing Dynasty (1644 AD to 1911 AD), the familiar Niuweidao or Oxtail Sword was developed. A single-handed, single-edged sabre with a heavy blade with a flaring tip, it was never issued to the military and was solely a civilian weapon for self-defence.''

thanks for the history and those technical details... i like the simple description.

 

[bsruzm]

oh, so the film took cinematic liberty... like the below sword from the 2001 film, "planet of the apes"...

It's a bit artistic but movie does not feature such a cinematic liberty as in your example or such in bollywood.
Your welcome.