Şimşir (Shamshir)

[bsruzm]

The persian shimshir you posted is of turkic origins , it belongs to the post islamic persia where it was ruled by turks of the east << , bronze age persians were known for their archery rather than their swordsmanship

Their swords were short as daggers , like the houthi rebels


This would rather be a "persian " shimshir :

With carrying belt too

Looks great and I think I simplified in my first post all what you've said:

''Originally Persian swords were straight and double edged, just as the Indian khanda. The curved scimitar blades were Central Asian in origin. The earliest evidence of curved swords, or scimitars, is from the 9th century, when these weapons were used by soldiers in the Khurasan region of Central Asia.''

 

[rmi5]

The persian shimshir you posted is of turkic origins , it belongs to the post islamic persia where it was ruled by turks of the east << , bronze age persians were known for their archery rather than their swordsmanship

Their swords were short as daggers , like the houthi rebels


This would rather be a "persian " shimshir :

With carrying belt too

That's right. People living in mountains like some Persians, Yemenites, and also Scottish people, were using smaller Swords or daggers. Probably because it's not easy to carry and use a big sword in a mountainous region.

I think 'Zülfikar' wasn't exactly like that picture and also had a straight shape such as the rest of early Islamic swords of Arabs. I wish it existed.

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I was specifying swords originated from Turko-Mongol saber that is why I didn't add other than those but seems it's all cool

Most probably, Zulfiqar did not have Arab origin and it was originally built in Persia or India. Also, about the shape, it's not certain that if it had two blades at its end. For example, if you look at the Saber you posted in the post #1, you would see that it has a shape like what Arabs say "Faqaraat", so, some people say that Zulfiqar(Also meaning something that has faqaraat) has been something like that Saber you posted.

 

[bsruzm]

Most probably, Zulfiqar did not have Arab origin and it was originally built in Persia or India. Also, about the shape, it's not certain that if it had two blades at its end. For example, if you look at the Saber you posted in the post #1, you would see that it has a shape like what Arabs say "Faqaraat", so, some people say that Zulfiqar(Also meaning something that has faqaraat) has been something like that Saber you posted.

Bro, I didn't say what origin it has but did say ''had a straight shape such as the rest of early and pre-Islamic swords of Arabs'' In fact I never heard of where Zülfikar was originated

 

[jammersat]

Looks great and I think I simplified in my first post all what you've said:

''Originally Persian swords were straight and double edged, just as the Indian khanda. The curved scimitar blades were Central Asian in origin. The earliest evidence of curved swords, or scimitars, is from the 9th century, when these weapons were used by soldiers in the Khurasan region of Central Asia.''

Yes , but from what i researched on the wikipedia you can see for yourself , Central Asia was inhabited with proto-aryan scythian people , not turks , turks came from western mongolia , the chinese essentially pushed them towards here , that's what i understand with regards to scythians.

That's right. People living in mountains like some Persians, Yemenites, and also Scottish people, were using smaller Swords or daggers. Probably because it's not easy to carry and use a big sword in a mountainous region.


Most probably, Zulfiqar did not have Arab origin and it was originally built in Persia or India. Also, about the shape, it's not certain that if it had two blades at its end. For example, if you look at the Saber you posted in the post #1, you would see that it has a shape like what Arabs say "Faqaraat", so, some people say that Zulfiqar(Also meaning something that has faqaraat) has been something like that Saber you posted.

I agree with that , the so call Zulfiqar if anything resembles a "Scyth" more than an arabian sword , why it looks particularly that way , well maybe the arabs didn't know how to make a scyth and threw in some innovation

 

[rmi5]

I agree with that , the so call Zulfiqar if anything resembles a "Scyth" more than an arabian sword , why it looks particularly that way , well maybe the arabs didn't know how to make a scyth and threw in some innovation

Yeah, this weird proposed shape of Zulfiqar is because of misunderstanding about Arabic texts. Zulfiqar means "Saaheb e Faghareh", and Faghareh in Farsi means "dandeh dandeh shekl", that's why in farsi, the nerve system is called "Sotoun e Fagharaat" From the story about how Zulfiqar was destroyed(it was burnt in fire), we can easily understand that it has had high percentage of Carbon, which based on such steel technology, we can understand that it has been most probably made in India or Persia and not made by Arabs. I guess it has been like the saber shown in the first post.

 

[bsruzm]

Yes , but from what i researched on the wikipedia you can see for yourself , Central Asia was inhabited with proto-aryan scythian people

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we can understand that it has been most probably made in India or Persia and not made by Arabs

What I understood by your post is If only it was possible, you could claim that Ali wasn't an Arab also. I don't know what issues you two have but get over it.
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A type of Turkic origin Polish sabre (szabla) named Karabela (Blackbane):

A Turkic origin-Magyar sword from 9th century:

 

[rmi5]

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What I understood by your post is If only it was possible, you could claim that Ali wasn't an Arab also. I don't know what issues you two have but get over it.

So, if you buy a Japanese car, then you will no longer be a Turk, and will become a Japanese?!!!
What I am saying is that based on its technology(High percentage of Carbon), it should have been either Indian or Persian.

 

[bsruzm]

So, if you buy a Japanese car, then you will no longer be a Turk, and will become a Japanese?!!!

'If only it was possible' I said. Do you have some reading issues also? It does seem you do have, since the very begining of your posts in this thread.
It could be but I don't think you can claim anything on where that sword was originated since it doesn't exist anymore.
Historians doubt on how that non-existing sword was looking and yet you claim me it's technology and origin.

This thread is about Turkic origin swords.
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Another example of Magyar sword of Turkic origin:

 

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Sword of Süleyman the Magnificent - 16th Century.

 

[BaybarsHan]

 

[rmi5]

'If only it was possible' I said. Do you have some reading issues also? It does seem you do have, since the very begining of your posts in this thread.
It could be but I don't think you can claim anything on where that sword was originated since it doesn't exist anymore.
Historians doubt on how that non-existing sword was looking and yet you claim me it's technology and origin.

Dude, I am the one who lives in an English Speaking country, then maybe you are the one who has problems with comprehending English language. Doesn't it sound more realistic?!!!
Anyway, As I said before, the story is well narrated in multiple books. When Arabs tried to melt Zulfiqar to make smaller swords with it, it got burnt. Why it happened? because it had high carbon-percentage and arabs did not know that such swords, cannot be just easily melt like their own normal swords. It's very simple to understand.

This thread is about Turkic origin swords.

I answered one of your posts; I did not open the new topic.
-Good Luck!

 

[telkon]

Yes , but from what i researched on the wikipedia you can see for yourself , Central Asia was inhabited with proto-aryan scythian people , not turks , turks came from western mongolia , the chinese essentially pushed them towards here , that's what i understand with regards to scythians.

as OP stated, curved sword is first attested c.9. century in central asia. by that time central asia was already a home to turkic peoples. from 6. century onwards turkic tribes started to migrate to central asia. and it's BS that chinese pushed them. turkic migrations (esp. after 8. century) were the result of Göktürk Khaganate's demise and power vacuum which came after it. power vacuum meant everyone attacked everyone in mongolia and east turkestan, so tribes started to flee west.
i won't go into scythians. that matter is just a big pile of if's and maybe's. i'll just say that from 6. century onwards there were turkic tribes penetrating as far as mangishlak peninsula in caspian sea.

Yeah, this weird proposed shape of Zulfiqar is because of misunderstanding about Arabic texts. Zulfiqar means "Saaheb e Faghareh", and Faghareh in Farsi means "dandeh dandeh shekl", that's why in farsi, the nerve system is called "Sotoun e Fagharaat" From the story about how Zulfiqar was destroyed(it was burnt in fire), we can easily understand that it has had high percentage of Carbon, which based on such steel technology, we can understand that it has been most probably made in India or Persia and not made by Arabs. I guess it has been like the saber shown in the first post.

most probably india. almost all quality steel came from india. even damascus is made from indian steel. iirc, 13. century arab manuscript states that "arabs made their swords from steel brought from ceylon and bengal."

 

[bsruzm]

Dude, I am the one who lives in an English Speaking country, then maybe you are the one who has problems with comprehending English language.

Can you explain me what does (If only it was possible) mean clever guy the one who lives in English speaking country?
Problem isn't with your English but is with your sight.
I never heard of such bullsh*t a person who lives in an English speaking country, speaks better than the one who doesn't, I think it's about education.

 

[jammersat]

as OP stated, curved sword is first attested c.9. century in central asia. by that time central asia was already a home to turkic peoples. from 6. century onwards turkic tribes started to migrate to central asia. and it's BS that chinese pushed them. turkic migrations (esp. after 8. century) were the result of Göktürk Khaganate's demise and power vacuum which came after it. power vacuum meant everyone attacked everyone in mongolia and east turkestan, so tribes started to flee west.
i won't go into scythians. that matter is just a big pile of if's and maybe's. i'll just say that from 6. century onwards there were turkic tribes penetrating as far as mangishlak peninsula in caspian sea.

I know the turkic tribes of the east moved to central asia before islam , islam just paved the way for them to go as far as poland and egypt ; it is said the sassanids fought the turks of the east aswell as Rome , so like you said turks were already in central asia before islam , Before them there were the scythian people or the Saka

And i must emphasize when i'm talking about the turks of the east , i'm referring to people native to mongolia and not the anatolian people who lived in the byzatine rome and still populate turkey to a greater extent. i've visited both turkey and hungary and i know the "turks" are a tiny minority there

Turkic migration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The earliest documented Turkic peoples appear as nomadic tribes on the plains of the Far East north of the Great Wall of China, which was constructed as a fortified border essentially between Han Dynasty (206 BCE to 220 CE) China (though started earlier) and the Xiong-nu.

 

[bsruzm]

islam just paved the way for them to go as far as poland and egypt ; it is said the sassanids fought the turks of the east aswell as Rome

Is that dude who rests in peace a Persian? I see some Romans and Europeans, too. (1:18)

Poland was always there and still but I don't know why Islam didn't pave the way for Persians go as far as Poland? As I said whatever issues you have, get over it.