Should the Kurds have a referendum in Turkey?

[azzo]

Libyan living standards were among the highest in Africa it was said?

lol I think you answered yourself.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

That's the point, Libya was rich but living standards were poor, because Qadhafi he was a military general. As opposed to Jordan or Qatar.

It wasn't by coincidence, failure is attracted to failure.

USSR vs USA
Arab socialism vs Monarchism

Compare the current status of the two and you will get your answer.

You anti-Monarchy delusionals will keep squirming til the end of history, while monarchies keep developing and owning you in every front.

Monarchism is to easy and simple.

We should not care about the title here as there is no difference between most of them in terms of actual power. The "republican" "president" Al-Assad has way more power than the Emir of Kuwait for instance.

The Arab monarchies have been as big Arab nationalists if not bigger (actually doing more for the Arab world and ordinary people and not trying to conquer/dominate fellow Arab states) than the so-called "Arab nationalists" (Republicans) during the Cold War. However unlike the republican military dictators (90% of them belonging to the lower class and quite frankly being highly incompetent as evident of their rule and achievements - typical of most populists - they tend to start well before failing badly) the Arab monarchies did not try to change what had worked for millennia by parading a few 100 women into the military or showing women without headscarfs in schools thinking that their 2 year old changes had changed several millennia old traditions and cultures overnight. This delusion did not work and neither will the delusion of imposing "democracy" overnight. For that you need the ingredients that I mentioned. We can all see the "democracy" at work in Libya currently or Yemen post Ali Abdullah Saleh. Or Iraq post Saddam. Don't think that more examples are needed.

This region of the world, at least currently, does not allow you to be a Scandinavian democracy. If you try you will simply perish. Developments in Turkey don't surprise me the slightest for instance. Or Iranians having accepted (more or less) the Mullah's. Should genuine democracy (Scandinavian) ever emerge in Iran tomorrow there would no longer be Iran but a bunch of different entities. Speaking about Kurds.

What did democracy give Iraq post-2003 other than a extremely weak system, facing foreign interference 24/7, autonomy for KRG, losing land to KRG etc.

 

[azzo]

 

[HannibalBarca]

Libyan living standards were among the highest in Africa it was said?

You cannot take Qatar in this comparison, 250K people with all the gas there is. Jordan isn't rich it's poor and has been living on handouts from Iraq and elsewhere for decades, what kept them safe is the US presence. Without those 2 factors they'd be in a much worse state.


History says different, create stability and the country will develop, create instability (caused by war mostly) and there will be problems. How did the Kuwaiti monarchy do when invaded?

GCC development rests on oil, the same Libya was rich under Qaddafi due to resources, the same Iraq was rich in the 70's due to resources and managed to launch wars due to this wealth. As for real development the GCC as well as the whole Arab world are far behind, the UAE is leading and that is simply because they're inviting westerners to do the thinking, might as well call the knowledge-based economy western run there.

A lot of you seems to forget a place of the Arab world... North africa... is ahead of any GCC or MENA countries... since years ( not the construction/mall stuff ofc)

UAE leading... stupidity at his paroxysm... Go live in Morroco per exemple... and you will see that it's a better version of UAE, but with less shiny gold... Healthcare, education, culture, arts etc... they are far ahead of any GCC... Even in Tunisia we have better healthcare/education sys than some GCC countries... ( and that for decades already) Like those few dozens of thousand of Saudis who are coming to Tunisia each year for Healthcare and surgery, bc it's cheaper and better quality... ( Doctors and co got an equivalent lvl as French ones... since we can work there) and so on...

Money is nothing when it's under monkey hands... Libyans were maybe those with highest standars of living... but Let me tell you one thing... They had money but no knowledge... univeristy/ hospitals/schools/entertainement... nada, niete, chay... they didn't have all of that, they were almost half of the year in tunisia, till this day for those peculiar need... Gaddafi gave them shiny white Korean cars and few thousand bucks at the end of the month, only to stay on power... like any GCC does today...

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

A lot of you seems to forget a place of the Arab world... North africa... is ahead of any GCC or MENA countries... since years ( not the construction/mall stuff ofc)

UAE leading... stupidity at his paroxysm... Go live in Morroco per exemple... and you will see that it's a better version of UAE, but with less shiny gold... Healthcare, education, culture, arts etc... they are far ahead of any GCC... Even in Tunisia we have better healthcare/education sys than some GCC countries... ( and that for decades already) Like those few dozens of thousand of Saudis who are coming to Tunisia each year for Healthcare and surgery, bc it's cheaper and better quality... ( Doctors and co got an equivalent lvl as French ones... since we can work there) and so on...

Money is nothing when it's under monkey hands... Libyans were maybe those with highest standars of living... but Let me tell you one thing... They had money but no knowledge... univeristy/ hospitals/schools/entertainement... nada, niete, chay... they didn't have all of that, they were almost half of the year in tunisia, till this day for those peuliar need... Gaddafi gave them shiny white Korean cars and few thousand bucks at the end of the month, only to stay on power... like any GCC does today...

ROFLMAO.

 

[HannibalBarca]

ROFLMAO.

??

 

[Saif al-Arab]

First, a monarchy doesn't hide behind names or use "Taqyya" (calling itself a republic for example) otherwise it loses one of the most important elements in a monarchy, legitimacy.

Second, every dictator tries to pass the rule to his son, like Mubarak or Saleh. That doesn't mean it's a monarchy.

Third, The assad family (their name was changed from aljahsh btw) were a minority who lived at the highlands in Syria, and we all know the symptom of highlanders vs lowlanders and the insecurities that develop from that, add to that that they were from a different religion all together (Nusayriiah) and that Hafiz was a military general who commited a coup. And you will have a system that can't get furthest from being a monarchy.

True.

My point was merely that Arab republican military dictators (Mubarak, Saleh, Al-Assad, Saddam, Gaddafi, Ben Ali etc.) only gained that legitimacy after decades of rule enabling them to even think about passing the throne to their off-spring. So in essence Arab "republican" military dictators were just the cheap copy of the real deal without any legitimacy of any short and with much worse achievements and much more hypocrisy. We can argue whether the current systems are perfect or not (they are certainly not) but if I want to buy something I prefer to buy the original rather than the fake and worse copy.

The Al-Assad dynasty is a monarchy as we entered generation 2 already. Almost 2 decades ago.

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

??

The UAE is the most advanced/developed country in the Arab World.

It's definitely not behind Morocco lol.

 

[azzo]

A lot of you seems to forget a place of the Arab world... North africa... is ahead of any GCC or MENA countries... since years ( not the construction/mall stuff ofc)

UAE leading... stupidity at his paroxysm... Go live in Morroco per exemple... and you will see that it's a better version of UAE, but with less shiny gold... Healthcare, education, culture, arts etc... they are far ahead of any GCC... Even in Tunisia we have better healthcare/education sys than some GCC countries... ( and that for decades already) Like those few dozens of thousand of Saudis who are coming to Tunisia each year for Healthcare and surgery, bc it's cheaper and better quality... ( Doctors and co got an equivalent lvl as French ones... since we can work there) and so on...

Money is nothing when it's under monkey hands... Libyans were maybe those with highest standars of living... but Let me tell you one thing... They had money but no knowledge... univeristy/ hospitals/schools/entertainement... nada, niete, chay... they didn't have all of that, they were almost half of the year in tunisia, till this day for those peculiar need... Gaddafi gave them shiny white Korean cars and few thousand bucks at the end of the month, only to stay on power... like any GCC does today...

That's news to me. I have no knowledge of this except that in Education I know for a fact that Saudi Arabia lead the pack when it comes to higher education rating and word class universities in the Arab world, followed by Egypt and then Lebanon.

 

[HannibalBarca]

The UAE is the most advanced/developed country in the Arab World.

It's definitely not behind Morocco lol.

Advanced with his Infrastructures... not for the other thing... and let's not forget that UAE universities ar emade by private ones... who are foreign exports univ...

 

[El Kari Kari]

Definitely. The Kurds are original inhabitants of their lands and they fulfill every stipulated condition of the Montevideo Convention of 1933 as well as of the UN Charter to become a free state.

 

[azzo]

Advanced with his Infrastructures... not for the other thing... and let's not forget that UAE universities ar emade by private ones... who are foreign exports univ...

UAE is well developed in some things, like services for example but not in education or higher education.
In education it's Qatar.
In higher education it's Saudi Arabia.

 

[HannibalBarca]

UAE is well developed in some things, like services for example but not in education or higher education.
In education it's Qatar.
In higher education it's Saudi Arabia.

YES... and even that it's new... it's since a decades or so... in N-Africa it's been the highest since decades...

But she always jump on UAE being the best of the best... or most advanced... building highest tower or infrastructures by foreigners ( whatever it's workforce or civil engineers) do not make them the most advanced... if tomorow those guys are not around... let's see if they can even make a pen...

In the End, GCC advance in those fields are new, and they are getting better, good for them.
But Downgrading other nations bc of few newly "advance" country emerged is not correct either...

 

[Saif al-Arab]

@TheCamelGuy

There is not a single genuine democracy (at least comparable to Western European democracies and everything this entails) in the Arab world let alone the Muslim world. Can you mention such a country because I don't know it?

Also as you know already the Middle East, at least currently, is not exactly a region where democracy, even if the people wanted, could flourish in. Did democracy flourish in Europe pre-1945 or even pre-1989? No less than 30 years ago half of Europe was ruled by dictators.

Besides for a democracy to function as it was intended to you need the right environment and enlightened voters. If not the end result will be only as good as the environment and electorate allows it to be. Case in point Iraq which has been a "democracy" since 2003 on paper but what does this matter when it has not brought anything good (that an enlightened dictator - on paper at least such as the Emir of Kuwait could not have given the country?) other than allowing people to vote every 4 years or so? 20% of the population is illiterate and the single votes of that contingent of voters counts as much as 80% of the voters who can read and write.

Why give power/enable people to have power if those people are unable to act as they should or unable to fulfill their responsibilities as voters and citizens?

Personally I would never agree to democracy if 100% of all potential voters in KSA would want to turn KSA into an "Islamic Republic" modeled after Iran for instance. Or another failed project. In such a case I would much rather prefer an enlightened meritocracy as "undemocratic" and "elitist" as this sounds. At the end of the day even in Western democracies the average voter has little say at the end of the day.

It's better for a minority to rule if that minority does the job they should do rather than the dumb/unqualified majority.

 

[azzo]

YES... and even that it's new... it's since a decades or so... in N-Africa it's been the highest since decades...

But she always jump on UAE being the best of the best... or most advanced... building highest tower or infrastructures by foreigners ( whatever it's workforce or civil engineers) do not make them the most advanced... if tomorow those guys are not around... let's see if they can even make a pen...

In the End, GCC advance in those fields are new, and they are getting better,

I agree with you, but there's nothing wrong with being new. No one denies that the GCC had nothing 50 years ago, but that only stand as a testament to our achievement since we outranked countries who had both the head-start and natural resources to go beyond their current state (Iraq, Iran, Libya, Egypt..etc).

And also nations rise and fall, you had the recent history, but we had the distant history, and some others the ancient and so on.