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Should the Kurds have a referendum in Turkey?

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KSA alone has a bigger potential let alone Egypt. Does not work like that. Tunisia and Morocco are obviously at the forefront in the Maghreb. No discussion about that.
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Algeria has the greatest potential. Also, due to its close proximity to Europe, Algeria will be able to benefit a lot from solar electricity exports.

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.الله يشافيك
 
I don't know what you base this "most potential" on as I have seen nothing that points toward that. Certainly not bigger than the potential of KSA nor has Algeria (remotely) even as strategic an location as KSA connecting 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe) with each other and some of the most strategic sea trade routes/waters. Also it's not like Egypt and KSA are located 1000's of km away from Europe. Algeria is closer to Spain but there is no direct land-connection. KSA/Egypt could potentially reach Europe not only by sea but also land. A big difference.

Let alone the biggest upcoming markets in the world which all will be located in Asia.

Also solar energy alone won't make a country a superpower. In such a case almost every single Arab country has the potential to become a superpower from Morocco to Oman.



And the GCC has everything aside from the lack of direct participation by the masses in the political process (itself something that will change soon and we have already seen signs of this) understood in the West but instead of using ballot boxes we have had something called Majlis for millennia and the construction of our society is also significantly different from the Western one. For once the sense of community in the GCC, at least in KSA, far extends anything that I have seen in the West. Democracy or not.
Algeria will feed solar-derived electricity to all of Europe. Saudi Arabia won't be able to do that.

Anyway, this won't happen anytime soon in my opinion.

Probably towards the end of the century.
 
I understand your view.

But you see those thing you said "Do you value safety, a good health care system, a good and free education system, a good infrastructure, stable institutions, a stable economy, continuity, traditions being upheld etc. AND do you value the fact that you can vote for some political parties "
We have them in Tunisia already... yes all of them. (only eco, not the best i agree)

And the GCC has everything aside from the lack of direct participation by the masses in the political process (itself something that will change soon and we have already seen signs of this) as understood in the West but instead of using ballot boxes we have had something called Majlis for millennia and the construction of our society is also significantly different from the Western one. For once the sense of community in the GCC, at least in KSA, far extends anything that I have seen in the West. The tribal, although this is slowly dying, element has always guaranteed a strong community feeling an the ability for direct participation in the decision making process by everyone - at least voicing opinions and giving your views = equals the process of voting for politicians and political parties today in essence. Democracy or not.

Algeria will feed solar-derived electricity to all of Europe. Saudi Arabia won't be able to do that.

Anyway, this won't happen anytime soon in my opinion.

Probably towards the end of the century.

KSA can easily do the same and not only to Europe but the biggest markets in the world on 3 continents and the most important one (Asia). Through land and sea. KSA is already the leading Arab country in terms of solar energy and also renewables. Saudi Arabian firms are building solar panels in Morocco, Jordan and Turkey currently. Just so you know.

https://constructionreviewonline.co...n-china-saudi-arabia-for-major-solar-project/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...acwa-signs-jordan-s-lowest-cost-solar-project

https://www.dailysabah.com/energy/2...ega-solar-energy-project-in-turkeys-karapinar

We have just decided to invest around 50 billion into that field for the next 13 years alone and no Arab country aside from UAE has such ambitious plans.

https://www.ft.com/content/d370829e-dbfe-11e6-86ac-f253db7791c6

However the projects in KSA due to the sheer size of KSA are many times bigger than those seen in UAE for instance in this field and also more challenging.

Not only that KSA is leading when it comes to desalination along with UAE. We are currently helping Sri Lanka in this regard and many other countries. When it comes to renewable energy (solar, wind, nuclear) KSA will not have any rivals in the Arab world or potentially the region in a few decades given the projects that will kickstart or have kickstarted already, potential or available money to spend on such projects.

Algeria, I am afraid, will be nowhere to be seen (in comparison) on those fronts overall. Although I would be pleasantly surprised if they could prove me wrong.
 
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.الله يشافيك
الله يشافيك انتي من الحقد المتاصل فيك

No matter how you look at it, Saudi Arabia is the only GCC country that combines wealth, population, and initiative to have the potential to be a real power.

Education, industry, tourism, infrastructure..etc etc. KSA leads in all of those fronts, and you can't do anything about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2016.html
http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/United-States/International-Students-In-US#.WNB2-PnytPY
 
الله يشافيك انتي من الحقد المتاصل فيك

No matter how you look at it, Saudi Arabia is the only GCC country that combines wealth, population, and initiative to have the potential to be a real power.

Education, industry, tourism, infrastructure..etc etc. KSA leads in all of those fronts, and you can't do anything about it.

I am not a participant in your little "beef" (if we can even call it that, lol) but nobody can deny what you have just written. Eventually KSA's success will ensure the increasing and ongoing social, political, economic, military etc. unification of the Arabian Peninsula and thus by default potentially the Arab world (at least the Mashriq) regardless of the future "political system/dynasty/ruler" in place in KSA. I am quite sure about that although you never know with this region.

There are few countries in the world with the potential of KSA and so many points in favor and yet a country that has only achieved 5-10% of its potential due to various reasons that we can discuss for another time.

Introducing taxation, creating a tourism sector, increasing the percentage of women in the workforce alone would make KSA the largest economy (by far) in the region within a few years. Not even talking about the healthy population increase and enormous potential for non-oil/gas economic growth and the highest number of students at US universities (and highest per capita) alone. You cannot understand how many 1000s of talented people that are either unemployed or working/living in the West or elsewhere in the Arab world due to the very well-known obstacles.

Most recently exemplified by the thread that I started about the female shawarma seller in Dammam that has a Master's degree in nanotechnology from Stanford (!) yet cannot find a job in KSA. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Not even sure that this would happen in North Korea. Or some of the retarded rules that cost us 10's of billions such as the 25 year old ban on women driving. Luckily our most retarded Mullah's seem to have been side-linded and can't do much and retards who support those clerics are also nowadays a minority and a very clear one despite being very loud at the same time. All in all, very positive.

Regardless of what will happen, I believe that we should keep the flag as it is truly unique.
 
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الله يشافيك انتي من الحقد المتاصل فيك

No matter how you look at it, Saudi Arabia is the only GCC country that combines wealth, population, and initiative to have the potential to be a real power.

Education, industry, tourism, infrastructure..etc etc. KSA leads in all of those fronts, and you can't do anything about it.
I'll be very happy for Saudi Arabia once it undergoes liberalizing reforms and becomes a leader in the Arab World.

I have no reason to be upset about a successful GCC. I'd rather the GCC asserts itself in the region than see the likes of neo-Ottoman Turkey or neo-Safavid Iran take over.
 
I'll be very happy for Saudi Arabia once it undergoes liberalizing reforms and becomes a leader in the Arab World.

I have no reason to be upset about a successful GCC. I'd rather the GCC asserts itself in the region than see the likes of neo-Ottoman Turkey or neo-Safavid Iran take over.

That's never going to happen anyway. For once the Safavid's were only present in half of Iraq (nowhere else in the Arab world) and the Ottomans were almost absent from Arabia outside of a relatively short period in Northern Yemen, parts of Eastern Arabia and Hijaz - the most autonomous province of the Ottoman Empire and a province where only the city garrisons were controlled. De facto the Sharif ruled and I know this reality very well for obvious reasons. There is a reason why Arabia has been unconquered by foreigners outside of overall small areas of the Peninsula.

Not to say that no regional power is ever going to dominate the entire region or even large parts of it. The only reason why foreigners can even interfere in war-torn Arab countries to begin with such as Iraq, Syria, Libya etc. is due to the stupidity/mistakes of locals there. Which regional countries interfered in Syria and Iraq again pre-2003 and 2011? Quite a few tried but nobody really succeeded and Iraq pre-2003 (say 2002) or Syria (2010) are nowhere near as powerful as KSA is today alone. So you can rest assured that nothing like that will happen. The only direct influence (as in the one that matters) will come from the usual suspect. The US and more increasingly China and possibly India in the future but India/South Asia and the people there have never really ventured outside their area to rule or influence events. That influence will remain economical as is the case today.

Those silly dreams of regional people to dominate/conquer foreigners (whatever ethnicity those dreamers have) are a thing of the past. It's not going to happen in this region at least. Each of the regional powers have already had their historical heydays. Same story in Europe and elsewhere.

If anything I believe in greater economic (in particular), political etc. integration in the region at least in the GCC and the Arab world for what it is worth. In any case better than status quo, that I am sure of.

As for KSA and "liberalization" (I do not like that word) that is obviously the only way that the development will go as I can't imagine anyone wanting to turn more towards the right (more conservatism). Not even the most conservative clerics that actually have a say. For once all the most important clerics in KSA have publicly supported most of the many changes that have occurred in KSA in the past 1 year. A few have voiced their concerns here and there but nothing that has mattered. The most important thing will be the pace. Take it step by step and don't be foolish enough to ignore significant segments of the society who might disprove of too sudden changes as that will bring nothing good. Patience is the key. In fact this recipe should be used by every Arab and Muslim country that is a developing country and at a crossroads.
 
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Personally know several ethnic Kurds who are happy being Turkish citizens. Had one in my university with me. Its really questionable how representative PKK and its affiliates are of the wider Kurdish population in Turkey.
 
That's never going to happen anyway. For once the Safavid's were only present in half of Iraq (nowhere else in the Arab world) and the Ottomans were almost absent from Arabia outside of a relatively short period in Northern Yemen, parts of Eastern Arabia and Hijaz - the most autonomous province of the Ottoman Empire and a province where only the city garrisons were controlled. De facto the Sharif ruled and I know this reality very well for obvious reasons. There is a reason why Arabia has been unconquered by foreigners outside of overall small areas of the Peninsula.

Not to say that no regional power is ever going to dominate the entire region or even large parts of it. The only reason why foreigners can even interfere in war-torn Arab countries to begin with such as Iraq, Syria, Libya etc. is due to the stupidity/mistakes of locals there. Which regional countries interfered in Syria and Iraq again pre-2003 and 2011? Quite a few tried but nobody really succeeded and Iraq pre-2003 (say 2002) or Syria (2010) are nowhere near as powerful as KSA is today alone. So you can rest assured that nothing like that will happen. The only direct influence (as in the one that matters) will come from the usual suspect. The US and more increasingly China and possibly India in the future but India/South Asia and the people there have never really ventured outside their area to rule or influence events. That influence will remain economical as is the case today.

Those silly dreams of regional people to dominate/conquer foreigners (whatever ethnicity those dreamers have) are a thing of the past. It's not going to happen in this region at least. Each of the regional powers have already had their historical heydays. Same story in Europe and elsewhere.

If anything I believe in greater economic (in particular), political etc. integration in the region at least in the GCC and the Arab world for what it is worth. In any case better than status quo, that I am sure of.

As for KSA and "liberalization" (I do not like that word) that is obviously the only way that the development will go as I can't imagine anyone wanting to turn more towards the right (more conservatism). Not even the most conservative clerics that actually have a say. For once all the most important clerics in KSA have publicly supported most of the many changes that have occurred in KSA in the past 1 year. A few have voiced their concerns here and there but nothing that has mattered. The most important thing will be the pace. Take it step by step and don't be foolish enough to ignore significant segments of the society who might disprove of too sudden changes as that will bring nothing good. Patience is the key. In fact this recipe should be used by every Arab and Muslim country that is a developing country and at a crossroads.
That's what I'm hoping for, to be honest.

I was born in the Arabian Peninsula and I plan to die here lol. I belong to this place. I don't want this part of the world to become a 21st century de facto colony of either neo-Safavid Iran or neo-Ottoman Turkey. I want the Arab World to reassert itself in the region and free itself from the chains of neighboring non-Arab countries that want to subjugate the Arabs in the name of Islam.

There are a lot of neo-Ottoman and neo-Safavid megalomaniacs in Turkey and Iran, respectively. They're filled with delusions of grandeur and they still think they live in Ottoman and Safavid times. And the real irony is that they're using a religion that was born in Arabia to manipulate, exploit and subjugate the Arab masses.

The Arabs must regain their independence by reasserting themselves, and this can only happen through economic growth and social development. Hopefully the GCC leads the way where others have previously failed. And yes, EU-style integration is definitely needed. Hopefully Iraq joins the GCC once it becomes a stable country again.

The last time the Arabs led the Middle East, you had a golden age in the wider region. The Middle East was the center of science, literature, exploration, technology, freedom, the arts, innovation and philosophy when the Arabs last led the region. By contrast, when the non-Arab Muslims became the dominant force, you had lunatics like Ibn Taymiyyah (born in Turkey) and Al-Ghazali (born in Iran) instead.
 
That's what I'm hoping for, to be honest.

I was born in the Arabian Peninsula and I plan to die here lol. I belong to this place. I don't want this part of the world to become a 21st century de facto colony of either neo-Safavid Iran or neo-Ottoman Turkey. I want the Arab World to reassert itself in the region and free itself from the chains of neighboring non-Arab countries that want to subjugate the Arabs in the name of Islam.

There are a lot of neo-Ottoman and neo-Safavid megalomaniacs in Turkey and Iran, respectively. They're filled with delusions of grandeur and they still think they live in Ottoman and Safavid times. And the real irony is that they're using a religion that was born in Arabia to manipulate, exploit and subjugate the Arab masses.

The Arabs must regain their independence by reasserting themselves, and this can only happen through economic growth and social development. Hopefully the GCC leads the way where others have previously failed. And yes, EU-style integration is definitely needed. Hopefully Iraq joins the GCC once it becomes a stable country again.

The last time the Arabs led the Middle East, you had a golden age in the wider region. The Middle East was the center of science, literature, exploration, technology, freedom, the arts, innovation and philosophy when the Arabs last led the region. By contrast, when the non-Arab Muslims became the dominant force, you had lunatics like Ibn Taymiyyah (born in Turkey) and Al-Ghazali (born in Iran) instead.

I agree with some of your points but to be honest such delusions from those mentioned nationalities can also be found among Arabs and other people with an imperial past. Such people have no influence and tend to only be able to voice their fantasies on online forums or gatherings attended by 100 people or so.

The key here, as I told earlier, is that the problem lies within. In those war-torn Arab countries and their people. They are to be blamed first and foremost as harsh as this sounds. KSA and other influential Arab countries are to be blamed as well for not doing what was necessary. Case in point Iraq post-2003. However luckily things seem to be turning in the right direction and the natural one (Iraq returning to the Arab fold and potentially becoming a big/influential player in that very fold).

There is a lot of work but at the same time the potential of the Arab world is unmatched in the region. By far. The challenges are also bigger at the same time.

GCC or no GCC, increased political, economic, social etc. integration in the region will occur one way or the other. That's a given and I doubt that anything/anybody is able to stop that.

Well, the Islamic Golden Age was what it was. The highlight of Islamic civilization and it lasted for some 500 years but as anything good it ended. That Arabs ruled during that era, as we did for almost 1000 years of Islamic history until the rise of the Ottomans and eventually them gaining the Caliphate in 1517, is what it is, (nowhere does it state that only Arabs could/should rule the the Caliphate nor did we have such a God-given right or anyone else for that matter) but several peoples contributed to those developments as Arabs contributed to the Ottoman Empire (being the largest ethnic group) and non-Iranians did during the 200 year long Safavid rule for instance. People tend to forget that rulers are rulers but those that really mattered (as in the creators) were mostly ordinary people.

As for Ibn Taymiyyah, he was an Arab, although there are some theories of possible Kurdish origin (whether partial or fully I don't recall - if you notice there is almost different theories about the origin of almost all famous personalities during the Islamic Golden Age - of course most of the claims are baseless outside of the widely accepted ones), while Al-Ghazali was a Persian. You have to remember that the presence of Arabs in Turkey (Southern Turkey in particular) predates the Turkic migrations to Anatolia. Also significant parts of Southern Turkey were part of ancient Semitic civilizations such as the Assyrian Empire (the first real empire of such a size in the world) and other previous civilizations. To this very day 1.5-2 million Turkish citizens of Arab origin live in those regions of Southern Turkey (I am not only thinking about Hatay here). Not counting the recent Syrian refugees. Their presence even predate Islam but most came when those regions were conquered from the Byzantine Empire.

Also, believe it or not, but it is first recently that I have learned that the main Kurdish-populated city of Turkey (If I am not wrong), Diyarbakir, is named after the Arab tribe Banu Bakr that used to dominated that part of the region in the past. Quite hilarious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyar_Bakr

Speaking about Kurds and the complexities of the region, did you know that there is branch of the Shammar tribe in Northern Syria that is allied with Kurds of Northern Syria (they are called Al-Sanadid Forces) and they want to reestablish the Emirate of Jabal Shammar and are openly anti-KSA (House of Saud more precisely), lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Sanadid_Forces

You have fiercely anti-KSA (House of Saud) members of the same Arab tribe some 400 km from some of the most loyal members of the same Arab tribe (Shammar) in Northern KSA. In next door Iraq you have members of the same tribe being either Sunni or Shia and thus in general having different political beliefs and visions for the region.

In short the complexities of this region.:lol: No wonder that I would prefer an enlightened meritocracy instead of giving the masses too much power.

Point in case is that the region needs changes whatever ideology you might have. Currently, for all I care, China should increase its influence in the GCC. Something good has to come out of this.
 
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Fuel the Kurdish-Turkish war so that Turkey stops fueling wars in its Arab neighbors, when they support Barzani respond by supporting the YPG to force them reconsider their policy. Airdrop some chocolate over the Qandil mountains, set up long range air defense systems and harass their jets when they attempt to strike the PKK.

A lot is possible, it's just that Abadi likes to play it safe unlike previous leaders. Syria could do some more too.

We have a saying "Drawn by blood, can only be discarded by blood."

You wanna claim our lands...? Then face us on the battlefield as there is no other way. (Just don't lose Musul and Kerkük while you are dreaming. ;) )
 
Instead of deviding into small pieces i dont understand what people gain having small area with their own kind. If kurd is doing this for islam then its understanable but its just cuz some of them feel their are different race then every one sud find their roots and go back there..
unity might be painful at the time but this is the only solution between muslims ummah. if turkey is getting strong we all muslims participate to make them stronger instead of weak... The stance turkey taking against Europe we might see stronger demand to sepration and coas.
War in syria is not going to stop and we all know it will take time but europe will be involve in it soon and if she thnks anyone will survive from it then they needs to immediatly get out from fools paradise.
 
Currently Turkey is facing a Kurd war of independence.While Erdogan is yapping about nonsense in Europe his military is repressing with sheer force and disregard for human rights the Kurd struggke for freedom.

Hipocrisy much?
Kashmir should have a referendum before that or palestinians and israeli arabs should be given that right.
But muslims are target so that won't happen there. Only sudan can be divided.
 
Referendums should be allowed everywhere, including in Iran and Iraq.

The people must decide their own fate.

Demand this kind of referendum in Kashmir and see how these European hypocrites react! Their talk of oppression stops when people talk of oppression over there.
 
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