Should the Kurds have a referendum in Turkey?

[Kuwaiti Girl]

@HannibalBarca I think the Arab Maghreb is the future of the Arab World, but in the meantime the GCC states are the leaders in virtually everything, especially (and most importantly) in economics. But in the long term, the Arab West will surpass the Arab East in my opinion. I already made a thread about this on PDF and carefully explained why I believe countries like Algeria are the future of the Arab World.

@Saif al-Arab Tunisia is a genuine democracy.

 

[HannibalBarca]

@TheCamelGuy

There is not a single genuine democracy (at least comparable to Western European democracies and everything this entails) in the Arab world let alone the Muslim world. Can you mention such a country because I don't know it?

Also as you know already the Middle East, at least currently, is not exactly a region where democracy, even if the people wanted, could flourish in. Did democracy flourish in Europe pre-1945 or even pre-1989? It did not least of all during wars and conflicts.

Besides for a democracy to function as it was intended to you need the right environment and enlightened voters. If not the end result will be only as good as the environment and electorate allows it to be. Case in point Iraq which has been a "democracy" since 2003 on paper but what does this matter when it has not brought anything good (that an enlightened dictator - on paper at least such as the Emir of Kuwait could not have given the country?) other than allowing people to vote every 4 years or so? 20% of the population is illiterate and the single votes of that contingent of voters counts as much as 80% of the voters who can read and write.

Why give power/enable people to have power if those people are unable to act as they should or unable to fulfill their responsibilities as voters and citizens?

Personally I would never agree to democracy if 100% of all potential voters in KSA would want to turn KSA into an "Islamic Republic" modeled after Iran for instance. Or another failed project. In such a case I would much rather prefer an enlightened meritocracy as "undemocratic" and "elitist" as this sounds. At the end of the day even in Western democracies the average voter has little say at the end of the day.

It's better for a minority to rule if that minority does the job they should do rather than the dumb/unqualified majority.

With Democracy those "Dumb" will last only for a small period of time, while in monarchy or else... if one Dumb is in power with all his security around him, it's either you shut up and obey therefore fall with him or you talk back but be prepared to get yourself a bullet or two...

 

[Saif al-Arab]

@HannibalBarca I think the Arab Maghreb is the future of the Arab World, but in the meantime the GCC states are the leaders in virtually everything, especially (and most importantly) in economics. But in the long term, the Arab West will surpass the Arab East in my opinion. I already made a thread about this on PDF and carefully explained why I believe countries like Algeria are the future of the Arab World.

@Saif al-Arab Tunisia is a genuine democracy.

The Arab Maghreb has never been ahead of the Arab Mashriq in history and I doubt that it will ever happen. No disrespect to any Arab west of Egypt. I don't see that happening due to simple demographics alone let alone all the other obvious reasons and factors. However it is evident that the entire Arab world is a diamond waiting to be discovered in terms of potential and that goes for the Maghreb as well.

Tunisia might be a "democracy" compared to most Arab and Muslim countries but I would not compare it with Western European democracies. Yet.

 

[HannibalBarca]

The Arab Maghreb has never been ahead of the Arab Mashriq in history and I doubt that it will ever happen. No disrespect to any Arab west of Egypt. I don't see that happening due to simple demographics alone let alone all the other obvious reasons and factors. However it is evident that the entire Arab world is a diamond waiting to be discovered in terms of potential and that goes for the Maghreb as well.

Tunisia might be a "democracy" compared to most Arab and Muslim countries but I would not compare it with Western European democracies. Yet.

in 6 years after revo we are almost 1 point behind France democracy index...
We are ahead of Singapore+ Hong kong and almost equal to poland on the index...

 

[Saif al-Arab]

With Democracy those "Dumb" will last only for a small period of time, while in monarchy or else... if one Dumb is in power with all his security around him, it's either you shut up and obey therefore fall with him or you talk back but be prepared to get yourself a bullet or two...

Democracy, monarchy are just names of systems. What matters is the enlightenment (as understood by people in country x or y in a given time) of the society and populace and whether their distinctive needs and ambitions are fulfilled (majority of the people as there will never be full agreement on anything).

I don't consider allowing masses to vote as an achievement alone. Rather the contrary sometimes it can be a bad thing.

Democracy is good if the right environment is in place. Democracy has not helped Tunisia deal with some of the most important challenges such as economy, unemployment etc.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...d-solve-tunisia-problems-160126103803274.html

 

[HannibalBarca]

Democracy, monarchy are just names of systems. What matters is the enlightenment (as understood by people in country x or y in a given time) of the society and populace and whether their distinctive needs and ambitions are fulfilled (majority of the people as there will never be full agreement on anything).

I don't consider allowing masses to vote as an achievement alone. Rather the contrary sometimes it can be a bad thing.

Democracy is good if the right environment is in place. Democracy has not helped Tunisia deal with some of the most important challenges such as economy, unemployment etc.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...d-solve-tunisia-problems-160126103803274.html

Well ecomony has nothing to do with Democracy... China is not one, and yet...
It's mostly you get your basic rights...

 

[Saif al-Arab]

in 6 years after revo we are almost 1 point behind France democracy index...
We are ahead of Singapore+ Hong kong and almost equal to poland on the index...

Paper is one thing (rights as described on a paper in a law or constitution), the reality is often another. If you take a look, even at some of the constitutions of the GCC, they could also easily appear as "democratic" in nature. The best example is actually Syria here.

I am just saying that it takes time for a society, once democracy has emerged, to reach the necessary level of enlightenment. Tunisia is on the right track but I don't think that 5 years of freedom is comparable to several decades old "experiments" in Europe. No matter what some rankings say.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Paper is one thing (rights as described on a paper in a law or constitution), the reality is often another. If you take a look, even at some of the constitutions of the GCC, they could also easily appear as "democratic" in nature. The best example is actually Syria here.

I am just saying that it takes time for a society, once democracy has emerged, to reach the necessary level of enlightenment. Tunisia is on the right track but I don't think that 5 years of freedom is comparable to several decades old "experiments" in Europe. No matter what some rankings say.

Well the thing you forgot is that Tunisia was already a democracy before Ben ali ( 1980') with bourguiba ( well equal to democracies in Europe at that time))... Democracy in Tunisia was just "stopped for 2.5 decades only"

 

[flamer84]

The reason that Romanian gypsy guy opened this is because i owned him

Want to go out for a coffe? I ll be in Constantinople for 3 days in may.

 

[azzo]

I already made a thread about this on PDF and carefully explained why I believe countries like Algeria are the future of the Arab World.

Of course, you had to choose Algeria, the only western country with a military government and Russian leanings and an absent president/"president for life" to be your example. Why not say Tunisia? which successfully created democracy for the first time in the Arab world? why not Morocco with its stability and current peaceful transition? but Algeria. Truly lol, I told you that youare a Shite/Shite sympathizer. And this isn't the only forum you post in, I can link to your other posts in Skyscrapercity cozying up to the Iraqi shites and Iranians and spreading false propaganda against Sunnis and KSA in particular in all matters.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Well ecomony has nothing to do with Democracy... China is not one, and yet...
It's mostly you get your basic rights...

Do you value safety, a good health care system, a good and free education system, a good infrastructure, stable institutions, a stable economy, continuity, traditions being upheld etc. or do you value the fact that you can vote for some political parties (all populist in nature and all trying to gain power) every 4 years and freedom of expression (there is no universal freedom of expression anywhere and it differs greatly even among Western European countries) etc.? It would be beautiful if you could get the whole packed in our region but that is simply impossible currently. Not only that in many of our countries and Muslim countries (not only Muslim but all developing countries with no history of genuine democratic systems - itself a fairly new information itself), I will argue all of them, the MASSES are simply not enlightened enough to know what is the best for them. There are also many examples of this.

Yes, you can argue that you need to start from somewhere and that you should aim at establishing democracy as soon as possible (if you favor that system) but sometimes you cannot start such a process if the fundament is not built yet.

All I am saying aside from that "Arab monarchies" vs "Arab Republican presidents" debate.

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

Of course, you had to choose Algeria, the only western country with a military government and Russian leanings and an absent president/"president for life" to be your example. Why not say Tunisia? which successfully created democracy for the first time in the Arab world? why not Morocco with its stability and current peaceful transition? but Algeria. Truly lol, I told you that youare a Shite/Shite sympathizer. And this isn't the only forum you post in, I can link to your other posts in Skyscrapercity cozying up to the Iraqi shites and Iranians and spreading false propaganda against Sunnis and KSA in particular in all matters.

I chose Algeria because of its solar energy potential.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I chose Algeria because of its solar energy potential.

KSA alone has a bigger potential let alone Egypt. Does not work like that. Tunisia and Morocco are obviously at the forefront in the Maghreb. No discussion about that.

Algeria is the most incompetently-ruled Arab country. People often complain about how better KSA should/could have been but they should just look at Algeria to see that potential alone is not enough. Or if they want to see what wasted potential looks like. KSA is Switzerland in comparison.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Do you value safety, a good health care system, a good and free education system, a good infrastructure, stable institutions, a stable economy, continuity, traditions being upheld etc. or do you value the fact that you can vote for some political parties (all populist in nature and all trying to gain power) every 4 years and freedom of expression (there is no universal freedom of expression anywhere and it differs greatly even among Western European countries) etc.? It would be beautiful if you could get the whole packed in our region but that is simply impossible currently. Not only that in many of our countries and Muslim countries (not only Muslim but all developing countries with no history of genuine democratic systems - itself a fairly new information itself), I will argue all of them, the MASSES are simply not enlightened enough to know what is the best for them. There are also many examples of this.

Yes, you can argue that you need to start from somewhere and that you should aim at establishing democracy as soon as possible (if you favor that system) but sometimes you cannot start such a process if the fundament is not built yet.

All I am saying aside from that "Arab monarchies" vs "Arab Republican presidents" debate.

I understand your view.

But you see those thing you said "Do you value safety, a good health care system, a good and free education system, a good infrastructure, stable institutions, a stable economy, continuity, traditions being upheld etc. AND do you value the fact that you can vote for some political parties "
We have them in Tunisia already... yes all of them. (only eco, not the best i agree)

 

[azzo]

I chose Algeria because of its solar energy potential.

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