Should INDIA rethink on MMRCA when Chinese buy SU-35

[Abingdonboy]

OFFICAL IAF STATMENT ISSUED TODAY (08/04/2013):

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. The CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a ‘back up’ as reported."

 

[hkmarine55]

Am not telling that we should buy Su 35.We can manage 44 su 35 threat with Super sukoi and su 30 mki itself but If the chinese ordered follow on of 180 fighter as they did with su 30 it will be a diffrent ball game.Chinese are countering USA . Which they can for next 20 years but these su 35 fitters are long range deep strike fighter.Rafale need to have drop tanks to achieve its range but 2Drop tanks results in high DRAG for a fighter and Low RCS will also be increased.In case of conflict rafale can be used against Pakistan A2A and A2G but cannot be used against CHINA due to its less range. Our Mirage used mostly for A2G role We had Mig 29 for A2A combat...Its says all. 124+follow on 60+ rafale tofight war against pakistan is too much .

If we buy Eurofighter Typoon it can be used as A2A and A2G roles with huge advantage against presnt russian fighters and Americans as well.With least RCS and high performance it can easily par with su 35 in A2A battle. If we have a joint operation with Awac,EF,Su30mki and Super Vs Awa Rafale,Su30 mki and super Which one looks better formation for u ?

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Oscar @nuclearpak @Aeronaut please close this thread also, IAF has made this thread entirely moot:
OFFICAL IAF STATMENT ISSUED TODAY (08/04/2013):

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. [ CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a ‘back up’ as reported."

 

[Dash]

bhai mere pehle padh toh le maine kya likha hai...assumptions mat bna...
I asked if IAF is going for Rafale because of its better capability in A2G role as compared to MKI.
Where did I question the decision of IAF.Tu quote karke bta mujhe.

Anyways that post was made to increase my post count to 30 so I could post mentions in another thread.Mujhe already pta tha ek reason yeh bhi hai.

@Dash tu bhi bta...maine IAF ko question kahan pe kiya...pta nhi kithon muh chak ke aa jaande criticize karne...

I was not commenting on your post to be honest, and sorry if got personal with you. I am talking in general. There are people who are creating threads just out of no where with all speculated data.

I will request everybody not to jump to any conclusion and not to panic. Its too late for that now..Again sorry I wasnt personally indicating you.

 

[hkmarine55]

negotiations are still underway. Rafale dint accepted for many tender requirment. 100% ToT + Hal as its producer.

Guys as Dash mentioned nothing to panic.This thread is just to get more about what we are doing with our MMRCA. Still deal is under way.

Its 'SHOULD INDIA RETHINK" not it did

 

[Abingdonboy]

Guys as Dash mentioned nothing to panic.This thread is just to get more about what we are doing with our MMRCA. Still deal is under way.

Its 'SHOULD INDIA RETHINK" not it did

Well if the IAF is clearly saying "NO" then why even entertain the notion of a "rethink"?? I dare say the IAF is far,FAR more qualified to make these judgments than almost anyone here. if they say the Rafale is the way to go then there is solid reasoning behind this and this is what is best for them and hence India.

 

[hkmarine55]

The Defence Ministry and French aviation giant Dassault, manufacturer of Rafale jets, are engaged in contract negotiations after Rafale was selected as the lowest bidder early last year.

However, Dassault recently raised doubts about the capability and role of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to manufacture 108 jets in India. As per the request for proposal (RFP) conditions, India will buy 18 jets off the shelf from the vendor and HAL will manufacture the remaining planes.

Dassault reportedly said it will supply the kits to the Indian public sector aircraft manufacturer and will not be responsible for the final

product. Given these reservations, the French company wants to sign a separate contract with HAL for planes to be integrated in India.

India has rejected Dassault’s conditions and maintained that the RFP clearly stipulates that the vendor will be responsible for all the 126 jets and the HAL is the lead integrator.

The Defence Ministry and Dassault are now engaged in talks to sort out this irritant. Besides this issue, the recent AgustaWestland VVIP helicopter scandal has jolted the Government and any allegation of bribes or wrongdoing in the MMRCA contract may prove costly for the Congress in the run up to the general elections, sources said.

In this backdrop, the Defence Ministry is taking all precautions to avoid any slip-ups even as the deal is marred by delays as the RFP was issued way back in 2008. Defence Ministry maintains that given the magnitude of the contract, negotiations are “protracted” and claimed that there are no slippages and the process is on track.

Defence Minister A K Antony recently said even after the contract negotiations are over, the deal will have to go through six to seven stages of vetting before the Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) headed by the Prime Minister and the Union Cabinet gives its approval.

Sources also said if the deal does not go through, the Government will not negotiate with the second lowest bidder Eurofighter (consortium of Germany, France, Italy and UK). Incidentally, reports indicated that Germany will ask the Indian political leadership to reconsider Eurofighter’s bid when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh holds talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel this week in Berlin.

 

[Dash]

Its 'SHOULD INDIA RETHINK" not it did[/B]

India is not in a state of rethinking. Coz that will only cramp our steps towards acquiring required 1st. Capability and then 2nd. Squadron strength.

Rafale was selected not because it is was the lowest bidder but it had the capability of a true multirole fighter. Both in A2A and A2G, which was pre-requisite to MRCA laid down by IAF. There was no other fighter in MRCA which could fit that swing role category and this is something IAF currently lacks when it comes to operational capability.

Rethinking is all we can do, but finding an alternative to RAFALE?, Impossible!

 

[hkmarine55]

IAF dint say DEAL is INKED with rafale or Deal will be INKED for sure. They just had said the process is going on .We dont have any

 

[janon]

Kloitra I agreed "Our forces are better than us in thinking up and planning for various scenarios, why not just believe in them?!" But our force rejected Rafale thats the point am making Am really worried that these deals are finalised by BABUs and Netas not INDIAN AIRFORCE.Even with our armed forces Kickbacks and corruptions are not new or unknown. Any good reason MoD had was the price tag between Rafale and EF.Rafale is 5 miilion $USD cheeper.But now Rafale itself cost more than EF and Desault refused to give 100% ToT against 2 billion $USD .Eurofighter typoon is ready to reduce its tender price (5 mill) with 100% ToT and with 2 to fews months of 1 Batch delivery of fighter jets.But with rafale it will take another 3 years for the first fighter jet. NOTE:EF is not inferior to rafale.Infact its superior in many aspect.Technology and in performance. India should use Rafale for its Carrier fleet.and Buy EF which is closest 4 gen fighter with 5 gen features. NOW MoD's price tag reason also wrong,Tender rules been violated still MoD want to negotiate with rafale ? Its MMRCA SCAM under way

I did not respond when you first made that claim, but now you have repeated this several times, so I have to say this. The Rafale was NOT rejected by the IAF. It was some baseless speculation in the media, even before the technical trials started. That rumor was denied by the MoD, IAF and Dassault at that time. Other than anonymous media report, no official source ever said that. Please show me a single VALID source saying that IAF rejected the Rafale. Rafale was well and truly IAF's choice, after exhaustive trials. It is what they want. They have made that amply clear.

At the time that those rumors surfaced, all the 6 contenders were in the race. It would take an incredible leap of faith to believe that the Rafale was inferior to the F-16 or Gripen or mig-35. Technically it is easily superior to those, and even in pure air-to-air combat, can fly cirlces around the first two. In air to ground, none of the other contenders come near the capabilities of the Rafale. (Maybe f-18 for the sheer variety of armaments.)

So at that time, in 2009, there is no way that IAF would have rejected the rafales but not the others. And remember, it was IAF that shortlisted Rafale and EF. It was NOT a rigged competition. Don't go by a rumor or two. Plenty of media reports also said that the EF had won, they also said that the EF-2000 had bested the F-414, all of which was untrue.

 

[hkmarine55]

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. [ CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a ‘back up’ as reported."

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media ? What is that report ?

India has rejected Dassault’s conditions and maintained that the RFP clearly stipulates that the vendor will be responsible for all the 126 jets and the HAL is the lead integrator.

Monday, 08 April 2013 | Rahul Datta | New Delhi
dailypioneer.com

The backup plan will see the IAF opting for 50 more Sukhoi-30 MKI jets to be bought off the shelf from Russia. The IAF has already inducted 100 SU-30s and will have 200 more jets in the next three to four years excluding the ones forming part of contingency project.

 

[kurup]

Thanks for your advice but I am a big boy.

I can deal with people like Koovie on my own.

Never said you can't .............

 

[hkmarine55]

janon i really wonder fron wr did u came up with this...When did MoD said its all speculation? Its in all public domain if had read 2009 news papers or seached on Internet about it.It was a HEADLINE in most of all news papers that RAFALE officially been rejected by MoD after it dint meet its requirments.

Thursday, April 16, 2009
First Blood! Rafale ejected from MMRCA!
It's first blood in the Indian Air Force's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. And the first to bite the dust (also the one who probably needed the contract more than any of the other six contenders) is the French Rafale, developed and built by Dassault Aviation. The never-before-exported fighter has been counting immeasurably on the long and deep ties that its maker, Dassault, has shared with the Indian Air Force and government, especially the warm, fuzzy relationship it has made possible with the Mirage-2000s. But it's official now. Dassault's technical bid did not make the IAF's cut -- the reasons will come out in detail over the next few days. Dassault hasn't made an official comment on the news just yet (don't know if they've been officially intimated yet by the MoD about the down-select). That's got to hurt. I've shot off a few questions to the Dassault people in Saint Cloud. Let's see what they say. Watch this space.

The French media, which has (obviously) pounced onto the story is talking about how the elimination is just another sign of just what a cursed programme the Rafale is and how a possible Arab contract is its only hope. Well, that's what they said about the MMRCA contract, so.

For good measure, I've commissioned a column on "Rafale: First Blood" from an aviation watcher in Paris who has worked previously with the Rafale programme. That should be up here tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Posted by Shiv Aroor at 8:11 PM Livefist

 

[janon]

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. [ CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a ‘back up’ as reported."

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media ? What is that report ?

India has rejected Dassault’s conditions and maintained that the RFP clearly stipulates that the vendor will be responsible for all the 126 jets and the HAL is the lead integrator.

Monday, 08 April 2013 | Rahul Datta | New Delhi
dailypioneer.com

The backup plan will see the IAF opting for 50 more Sukhoi-30 MKI jets to be bought off the shelf from Russia. The IAF has already inducted 100 SU-30s and will have 200 more jets in the next three to four years excluding the ones forming part of contingency project.

One has to take it with a pinch of salt when the reporter makes such a glaring factual error in the report. India has at least 169 MKIs, possibly more by now. I have to question his credibility.

Anyway the IAF itself has denied the reports, so...

 

[hkmarine55]

RAFALE WAS REJECTED BY IAF and MoD ..Here is a valid source by IndianExpress

French Rafale out of race for IAF fighters - Indian Express

In a shocker, the French Rafael fighter has been knocked off a $ 10 billion contract to provide 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The French fighter, which was one of the six contenders for the race, was officially rejected by the Defence Ministry for failing to meet qualitative requirements for the contract.
The news comes as a bit of a shock as the Indian Air Force has been maintaining that all six contenders – the American F 18 and F 16, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Gripen NG and the French fighter – had met the technical requirements.
However, a senior defence ministry official made is clear on Thursday that Rafael has been rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements that had been detailed in the tender document. The flight trials for the remaining five fighters are now expected to commence within three months, a senior MoD official said.

“They did not meet the requirements and will not proceed to the next stage. We hope to begin trials within three months with the others that have qualified,” a top Defence Ministry official said.
While the French fighter was always considered an underdog in the competition, which has been described as the largest international defence contract in the world, it was been aggressively pushed by the French government. Former President Jacques Chirac and his successor Nichols Sarkozy have been talking about the fighter in all their interactions with India.

Interestingly, a separate contract, valued at close to $ 2 billion, for the upgrade of IAF’s Mirage fighter fleet has also been stuck for several months with India and France stuck in commercial negotiations. While the IAF requires an urgent upgrade, the excessive price being quoted by France for the upgrade of over 50 fighters has been a dampener.
The early elimination of the Rafael too is being attributed by insiders to high costs and failing to respond to technical queries. While the commercial bids were to be opened at a later stage, the cost of the fighter has always been considerably more than most of its competitors.
Insiders also say that the ministry was not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries that had been sent after the French company submitted its technical bid. Sources say that the `half hearted’ replies and failure to provide enough information were factors that were considered in the fighter’s elimination from the second round of evaluations.

The fighter had also been missing from the bi annual Aero India military aircraft exposition that takes place in Bangalore while all its competitors were showcasing their fighters.

ITS ALL KICKBACKS From mirage deal to rafale.