Should INDIA rethink on MMRCA when Chinese buy SU-35

[JohnSeb]

No need for rethink. IAF's purchases are made according to IAF's requirements, not according to what PLAAF purchases.

 

[janon]

Honestly, I don't see a war with China and India in my lifetime or yours. Maybe, if India gets the Rafale it'll spur up healthy competition between the two countries. Maybe it'll light a fire under China and encourage her aviation industry to get their butt moving.

A war is highly unlikely, because both countries have a lot to loose. Both countries are furiously trying to improve the living standards of their people, and to grow their economy. Unless a maniacal regime comes up in either country, it is only a remote possibility. However, India has to prepare for the worst while hoping for the best.

Also, note that for India, the Rafales are not just about countering China. We need modern fighters in our fleet, period. There are some 400 fighters in the IAF that HAVE to be replaced, in fact should have been replaced 10-15 years back. Apart from the MKIs, we don't have a modern platform in our fleet. India is trying to be a capability based force, not an adversary based force. That is, regardless of China's state, the Indian military wants to build certain capabilities. And for that, it needs modern planes. No two ways about it.

 

[kurup]

have a heart
this is Punjabi sense of humor which is different from rest of India.I certainly didn't offend him or his mother.I was merely asking if he asked his mother for proof that she was indeed his mother like he was asking me to give a source.

He was trying to pick on me because I exposed his trolling on a different thread the other day.Hence the fitting response.

The guy you were replying to is not a punjabi ..... So I am afraid your "Punjabi sense of humor" is not going to work.

 

[godofwar]

The guy you were replying to is not a punjabi ..... So I am afraid your "Punjabi sense of humor" is not going to work.

I guessing you are here to defend his honor.
So tell me exactly what was offensive in my statement now that I have given a translation.

Was it insulting? Mildly yes
Was it offensive ? Nope

 

[kurup]

Unfortunately that seems to be the case. Dassault is being asked to take responsibility for HAL's performance, and any delays by HAL. No company on earth would agree to such a clause. Dassault has made it clear that it can accept responsibility for the 18 aircrafts it supplies (WRT quality of manufacture, timeliness of deliveries etc), but NOT for HAL's performance.

Otherwise, it wants to be made the lead integrator, instead of HAL. In that case, they are ready to accept responsibility for the manufacture of the whole lot. That is, if they are allowed to form a joint venture with a domestic firm to set up a production line, or if they are in charge of the line at HAL, they will accept responsibility. But this would take away from GoI's aim of complete indigenization and ToT.

Frankly, I think the GoI should be flexible on this, and MAKE HAL ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for what it does. It is time that HAL stood up and took some responsibility anyway. This is a repeat of the liability clause regarding nuclear reactors, where the govt wanted foreign suppliers to be responsible for any mishap, even when the operations of the plant were to be conducted by Indian firms.

It's like saying "You have to teach me all the know-how, and after that if I screw up, you have to pay me money as liability." Any CEO who agrees to sign such a clause will be fired by the board.

GoI can forget about getting any planes from anybody with such ridiculous clauses. Also, I have serious issues with how the entire saga has been taken up. There should have been a delink between the needs of the IAF and the desire to set up an aerospace industry. It is commendable that they want to learn cutting edge manufacturing technologies, but the pressing need of the IAF for MRCAs is being held up.

If that is the case , we are asking for unrealistic condititons and all the blame should be on MOD.

If HAL is the primary contractor , then Dassault should only be responsible for the 18 fly-away aircrafts + the timely( & qualitative) delivery of kits to HAL.

I guessing you are here to defend his honor.
So tell me exactly what was offensive in my statement now that I have given a translation.

Was it insulting? Mildly yes
Was it offensive ? Nope

I am all for quality discussion among Indians and as such there is no need for bold parts.

 

[godofwar]

I am all for quality discussion among Indians and as such there is no need for bold parts.

I am really surprised you were'nt there to stand up for me when he called me a noob and whatnot.
I mean at least I insulted him in a witty way rather than calling names.


Am I any less Indian than he is or does that make you hypocrite?

 

[hkmarine55]

Koovie dude ..I mentioned it.Its a concern of mine.Do u want me to fist post it on on Blog and then post with that link is that fine ? lol Ok lets debate.Why do u think Rafale is better than Su 35 ? Why do u think su35 with Chinese airforce is not a matter of concern to INDIA ? And war between india and china is hype made by tv channels ? haha CWhat will happen if china attacked india ? India should keep quit ? Plz grow upNow china occupied indian territory by war.WHAT WILL U CALL IT WAR OR HYPE ? U are a FANBoy but not me.

 

[sancho]

^^ Rafael is omni role fighter but more suited for A2G role than A2A

Flanker series is more suited for A2A role(remember it is derived from Su-27 which was desgined as Air superiority fighter, though having capability of playing A2G role)
@sancho> am I right?

Not exactly, the Flanker series as a whole is as you mentioned designed for air superiority, with the addition of multi role capabilities later. While Rafale was designed from the start to be a balanced multi role fighter (that's what Dassault means with Omni role), so the design goal itself makes a difference. However, the Flanker as a plattform is very capable in both roles, the Russians just specialised some of the according to their needs (Su34 and 35), while they offered the basic multi role version for exports (Su 30).


But yes, the Rafale suits our requirements more, since it is a medium class fighter, provides us techs and weapons that we don't already have through MKI or FGFA and most importantly gets us good ToT and offsets.

 

[Koovie]

Koovie dude ..I mentioned it.Its a concern of mine.Do u want me to fist post it on on Blog and then post with that link is that fine ? lol Ok lets debate.Why do u think Rafale is better than Su 35 ? Why do u think su35 with Chinese airforce is not a matter of concern to INDIA ? And war between india and china is hype made by tv channels ? haha CWhat will happen if china attacked india ? India should keep quit ? Plz grow upNow china occupied indian territory by war.WHAT WILL U CALL IT WAR OR HYPE ? U are a FANBoy but not me.

1. Your blog post wont do anything better unless you are a widely accepted defense blogger like Tarmak or livefist
2. Rafale has better multirole capabilities than the SU 35, its stealthier and its avionics are regarded as superior. But thats not the main point. One of the mains aspects of the MMRCA deal is the access to technology, 50% and to build a strategic partnership. If we do it with Russia, we wont gain anything new, since we already have everything. We already have access to Russias best technology!

Furthermore our upgraded SU 30 MKIs will be similar in specs to the Su 35.

3. China and India are the fastest growing economies, have a huge trade volume which will soon touch 100 billion USD, +2 billion people and so many opportunities.

Both governments and anyone with a brain will know that war can easily destroy everything since both are nuclear armed countries.
This does not mean that a country should not be prepared, but no one really expects it.
1962 us history now, we should and have to look forward to a good neighborhood. Remember, the only countries that can prevent the emerge of the Asian century are the countries of Asia, not the US and their slave states like the UK etc.

3. You are a fanboy, unless you are affiliated to the military.

 

[Kloitra]

Koovie dude ..I mentioned it.Its a concern of mine.Do u want me to fist post it on on Blog and then post with that link is that fine ? lol Ok lets debate.Why do u think Rafale is better than Su 35 ? Why do u think su35 with Chinese airforce is not a matter of concern to INDIA ? And war between india and china is hype made by tv channels ? haha CWhat will happen if china attacked india ? India should keep quit ? Plz grow upNow china occupied indian territory by war.WHAT WILL U CALL IT WAR OR HYPE ? U are a FANBoy but not me.

Whether or not Rafale can beat Su35 is a different matter. The reason for getting Rafale have been mentioned many times, that it is medium weight fighter. We will have 270 heavy fighters. We cannot afford more than that. We need medium and light fighters. This is how all the air-forces around the world are made of. This is how our airforce thinks that it should be structured like.

Also, even if Su35 be more capable air superiority fighter, there would be more factors involved. If India and China come to war, it would be in our territory. That means our other resources, like the abm systems, awacs etc would be involved. It is just like Pakistan pitting JF17 against MKI and believing it to be sufficient. Like we are hoping LCA would be sufficient as point defence against other superiority fighters.

Our forces are better than us in thinking up and planning for various scenarios, why not just believe in them?!

 

[hkmarine55]

sancho Same fighter jet was rejected by IAF for not meeting operational requirments What about that ? And we are carried away by the hype of 20Billion dollar deal This deal itself decade old .The time when Kargil war looms aroung INDIA.The time when Pakistan and China had less Air superiority fighter.But its 2013 now and we will start reciving 1st batch by 2016. Eurofighter meets all requirments and was the first preference og IAF too from 2002 itself.Rafale not yet made single export till date. Do not in the case of EF. Ef yet to have credible A2G capabilities but it wil get all the A2G by 2014 itself.Tests are carried out even when we speek .ToT will also be acheived too. EF is more stealth than Rafale with.05 Sqm against .5 Sqm

 

[kurup]

I am really surprised you were'nt there to stand up for me when he called me a noob and whatnot.
I mean at least I insulted him in a witty way rather than calling names.

Am I any less Indian than he is or does that make you hypocrite?

You two can call any names you like each other but when you bring it to family members (even if mild) , it will become messy .

I am not a MOD and I am just another Indian poster like you giving a simple advice ...... You can take it or leave it.

 

[JohnSeb]

Koovie dude ..I mentioned it.Its a concern of mine.Do u want me to fist post it on on Blog and then post with that link is that fine ? lol Ok lets debate.Why do u think Rafale is better than Su 35 ? Why do u think su35 with Chinese airforce is not a matter of concern to INDIA ? And war between india and china is hype made by tv channels ? haha CWhat will happen if china attacked india ? India should keep quit ? Plz grow upNow china occupied indian territory by war.WHAT WILL U CALL IT WAR OR HYPE ? U are a FANBoy but not me.

Why overly concerned about Su-35 in PLAAF, we are getting the much better FGFA

 

[godofwar]

You two can call any names you like each other but when you bring it to family members (even if mild) , it will become messy .

I am not a MOD and I am just another Indian poster like you giving a simple advice ...... You can take it or leave it.

Thanks for your advice but I am a big boy.

I can deal with people like Koovie on my own.

 

[hkmarine55]

Kloitra I agreed "Our forces are better than us in thinking up and planning for various scenarios, why not just believe in them?!" But our force rejected Rafale thats the point am making Am really worried that these deals are finalised by BABUs and Netas not INDIAN AIRFORCE.Even with our armed forces Kickbacks and corruptions are not new or unknown. Any good reason MoD had was the price tag between Rafale and EF.Rafale is 5 miilion $USD cheeper.But now Rafale itself cost more than EF and Desault refused to give 100% ToT against 2 billion $USD .Eurofighter typoon is ready to reduce its tender price (5 mill) with 100% ToT and with 2 to fews months of 1 Batch delivery of fighter jets.But with rafale it will take another 3 years for the first fighter jet. NOTE:EF is not inferior to rafale.Infact its superior in many aspect.Technology and in performance. India should use Rafale for its Carrier fleet.and Buy EF which is closest 4 gen fighter with 5 gen features. NOW MoD's price tag reason also wrong,Tender rules been violated still MoD want to negotiate with rafale ? Its MMRCA SCAM under way